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This topic contains 32 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by TwoCables TwoCables 23 Mar 2017 @ 8:28pm.

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  • #12703
    ViciousFluid
    ViciousFluid
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 23

    I don’t think anyone is really trying to attack anyone else.

    This is an open forum. Lets keep it focused on suggestions for the dev team rather than worrying ourselves over bickering ^-^

    My 2 Cents: I thought the water in D2 was actually a neat enhancement, and it did definitely add to the ambiance of some levels (particularly the way D2X later made those levels look “pretty”, the water looked *neat*, added some extra unexpected aesthetic touches that I enjoyed….like the glow of shield orbs against water n such…).

    The water also made some areas “hidden,” which added to the puzzleness. I though the 2D water was fine, and didnt give a rats a** how pixely it looked. It was just nice to see something different in the mines.

    However, I don’t think overload needs it. I think it’s aesthetically pleasing as is, and has plenty to offer visually.

    I also think that you could give us blue lava, still white lava (for ice maybe?), green or sludge looking lava, etc, and not one of us will be disappointed. it’s such a small part of the game for the dev’s to worry about, and in all fairness environmental effects aren’t why I love this game. I put my $$$ in this project for the 6DOF mayhem, water be damned!

    So yeah. Thats my opinion and i sincerely hope it offends no one ^-^

    #12711
    kaiser
    kaiser
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 1

    I’m not entirely sure what was confusing about this thread, given the title.
    Perhaps it is my own fault, as I was not explicitly clear in my original post: This thread has nothing to do with anyone who is not part of the development team. It is immaterial for random users to be evaluating or passing judgement on other’s suggestions: they have no say, and regardless of what the Revival team may have said in the past, things change. Even if year(s) old statements stand true, and were it appropriate (which it is not) for random users to comment on the feasibility of features or aspects, it does not mean that someone cannot express their desire for X feature or Y aspect.
    Additionally, attacking other users because one feels slighted isn’t appropriate. Further, what one’s job supposedly is or what kind of projects they have presumably been part of is irrelevant to this subject.
    I don’t mind others adding in their own suggestions in terms of what they would like to see in Overload, but this was never meant to be, nor does it have any kind of purpose, practical or otherwise, in becoming a discussion.

    Neatly sidestepping the inanity of others henceforward, I have further suggestions, though as it pertains to balance it will likely be obsolete very quickly, if not already.
    Note: I play almost exclusively on Hotshot. Yes, I’m a scrub.

    Titans are OP. Pretty much period. In the closed quarters of the mines, their enthusiasm for point-blanking missiles is lethal in the extreme. The AOE of said missiles is also a bit too high. Further, their behavior is… confusing. Sometimes they will rush at me with no concern for, well, anything. Other times they want to play hide and seek. Not entirely sure if this 180 is intended or not. If it is, it’s borderline psy ops, and my hat is off to the AI programmer.
    I’m rather torn between what I’m most scared of, though: Titans or Guardians. Both need a bit of a nerf in terms of how much they can knock the player around. The knock-around vs. the robots is desperately needed, as that will remove a small volume of incoming fire from the horde of murderous circuitry and metal, but knocking the player around as the Titans and Guardians in particular do, is a bit much.
    On reflection, it is also possible that I feel Titans are too strong because I feel the game likes to spam them. A handful of 50 spawned total robots being Titans would be closer to appropriate, but the game seems to get stuck on spawning them at times, and running into no less than 4 in a neat little cluster has spelled my doom more than I care to admit. I’m not sure if it has to do with playing the Centrifuge map or not, as I feel I rarely if ever see them on the Syrinx map.

    The Driller weapon is, as far as I can tell, the be-all-end-all of weaponry. With great damage, knock-around, and hitscan it’s by far the most effective weapon I’ve used. I hesitate to mention this, but it will probably get nerfed anyway, so I might as well get it out there. Rather than bring the Driller down to the other weapons’ level, it would be nice to have everything be effective.
    My gripes with the other weapons would be:
    Impulse: As mentioned has a slow projectile speed, and slightly sup-par damage.

    Cyclone: Low damage, with the maximum damage potential at an impractical range. Rather than a revisit of the

    Spread/Helix Cannon, a new weapon that has a cylindrical cone of fine (as though you’re firing a tornado) might be more amusing.

    Thunderbolt: Actually not bad. Maybe a very slight increase in projectile speed.

    Crusher: Ammo consumption too high and range is, like Cyclone, at an impractical distance if you like living, since in my experience the bots tend to horde up. Remains good for vs. melee bots, though.

    Flak: Decent, though a varied distance that the charges explode would be interesting I feel. I.e. X range is optimal, but X range + Y additional range still provides some amount of damage.

    Reflex: Really, I just want the Plasma weapon back to be honest. It’s not bad, though!

    As for the secondaries…
    Falcon: Needs an effect to stand out, I feel. Maybe a concuss effect (being the equivalent of the Concussion Missiles), sending the robot into a short (.5-1s) tumble or simply a stronger knock-around, otherwise it’s quite good. With the ++ upgrade, they’re godly.

    Hunter: Quite good. Would recommend changing the ammo display to account for total number of SHOTS rather than total number of MISSILES. Only because I’m bad at math when I’m busy dodging enraged machines bent on my destruction.

    Creeper: Probably OP, I find myself relying on them quite a lot for when I’m overwhelmed. A slightly stronger/faster homing would be nice, but as is, it’s very good.

    Devastator: Decent, though the range of the flak should probably be increased, or the effect re-evaluated for single-target focus (which I think it’s supposed to be?). Flak Missiles in D3 were extremely powerful, probably too powerful, and I can understand wanting to avoid a repeat, but it’s just not good with groups at all right now. Or I just really suck.

    Missile Pod: Nearly god-tier. Would recommend swapping firing sides after ~5-8 missiles, just to keep things interesting and make them harder to (ab)use; peeking around corners and unloading a firehose of missiles is a bit too easy right now. Additionally, rather than a stream of missiles having them fire in a swarm might be more thematically unique?

    I feel as though I’ve missed a weapon or two, but I suppose I can safely say I don’t use whichever it may be much, and so my input would hardly be worthwhile (assuming said input is currently).

    Thank you once again for your time.

    #12712
    DarkwingDiva
    DarkwingDiva
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 23
    Replies: 205

    I also agree that Guardian and Titan are a tad on the stronger side, and could use some work. Maybe slower fire rate, or idk. Something needs to be tweaked.

    I will say Kaiser that there are bunch of weapons upgrades coming (and some are already in as random pickup) so maybe some of those upgrades will help?

    #12717
    Profile photo of LotharBot
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 115

    this was never meant to be, nor does it have any kind of purpose, practical or otherwise, in becoming a discussion

    The purpose of discussion is for players (and devs) to evaluate how different ideas might fit together, and to look for connections (pro or con) that the person making the suggestion might not have made.

    I figure anything I post publicly is up for discussion. If I don’t want it to be discussed, I’ll send it privately instead.

    #12718
    LemurFromTheId
    LemurFromTheId
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 14

    I don’t want challenge mode balanced by making all robots more or less equally good at killing the player. I want it balanced by making sure that strong robots and weak robots spawn in appropriate ratios.

    And I say this as someone who gets killed by Titans all the time. I want to keep them as essentially miniboss-tier enemies, I just don’t want to see quite as many of them as I see right now.

    #12733
    TwoCables
    TwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 82
    Replies: 982

    For the record, I chose to talk to Quartermaster in the chat instead of reading his reply and I think we’re friends now. He’s actually pretty fun. It was all just a big misunderstanding and he spoke to me from the very first second like nothing was wrong! What a guy. He and I had a great conversation about all this stuff and now we are both on the same page.

    So, this post is to serve as a little bit of cool water on any fire that might still seem to exist between he and I. Rest assured it’s all forgotten and like I said, I think we’re buds now. No harm done!

    @kaiser:

    The Falcon is a little more of a Mercury Missile.

    The Hunter missile count shows you how many shots you have, not how many Hunter missiles you have. Way back in the first Playable Teaser, it showed how many missiles we had and it would drop by 2 with each shot. So now, 15 means we have 15 shots.

    Rest assured that some of the other things you mentioned have upgrades already to address your concerns with the weapons. Each Primary and Secondary has 2 upgrades (actually, 3, but in Challenge Mode we already get the first upgrade). I’d show you the list, but I don’t know how the team would feel about me sharing it because it’s currently in a Sneak Peek post. So the reason why the weapons seem to be lacking in one way or another is, they had to leave room for the upgrades so as to make the upgraded version not be too overpowered.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #12743
    Eauxcaigh
    Eauxcaigh
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 8
    Replies: 54

    @twocables: Glad to hear all is well.

    Some notes on weapon balance:

    My personal opinion on what should be changed:
    -cyclone damage and energy consumption increased by about 10%
    -reflex damage decreased by about 10%
    -thunderbolt energy per normal blast decreased from 4 to 3
    -crusher ammo per blast decreased from 8 to 6 (or even 5!)
    -flak distance increased by 10% + 10% of randomness

    WHY:

    Cyclone is inferior to reflex right now and I think both weapons need a slight adjustment to bring them in line. Reflex is more energy efficient (barely) and deals more dmg per second than cyclone (by about 20%). Top it off with reflex having a longer effective range, and homing bounce and I see no reason to choose cyclone over reflex. Even inside the range in which cyclone does full damage, it is actually more effective to spam reflex right in their face. The recommended changes make reflex a bit less efficient than cyclone and make cyclone the correct choice for max damage within its effective range.

    I agree crusher is too wasteful with ammo. Flak has the same damage per second further out (yes, that’s how close you have to be to max out crusher effectiveness, FLAK is further out!) and with more than twice the ammo-efficiency (damage/ammo spent). I think flak should travel just a tad further (I never want to get close enough to use it on insane), the idea of a small random component to the explosion distance is appealing to me.

    Driller is a great weapon because it is so consistent. It actually has quite poor straight-up damage potential, key is that it is much easier to realize its full potential than other weapons. Given its limited ammo and relatively poor damage per second, I try to use it only when necessary and switch off if another weapon could do the job. This appears to me to be the mark of good balance.

    Impulse requires you to lead your targets – I don’t think this is a bad thing and personally I find executing proper leading with impulse to be really satisfying. Impulse is a solid pick right now since it is the most energy efficient weapon in the game and has a very wide effective range. Add to this a solid knockback which can pushes away enemies and cause stun-locking and I personally don’t feel like widening its effective range even further (with a speed increase) is really necessary. That said, if they only boosted the speed by 5-10% I don’t think it would be OP yet and it would be a quality of life improvement for a lot of people. Lastly, I just want to remind everyone that there is still an un-revealed primary weapon out there which may or may not satisfy your itch for a fast-moving energy weapon.

    Thunderbolt is really difficult to gauge, but I think it is in a good place right now in terms of damage. I think it could be slightly better on efficiency in normal mode: right now it is about half the efficiency of reflex which is already inefficient compared to impulse. If you hit two targets with one blast, then the energy efficiency becomes comparable to reflex so it is kinda forcing you to use it only when you think you can line up the sick multishots. Interestingly, it performs quite well on tap-fire mode, with better damage per second than impulse or normal thunderbolt and better efficiency than normal thunderbolt against single targets. Still much less efficient than cyclone or reflex tho, which I don’t think is a bad thing. Tap-fire SHOULD be an inferior weapon, kinda a last-resort to use when you can’t wait for a charge.

    I just think normal mode shouldn’t be so terribly inefficient that even if you hit every shot and then some (multishots every now and then) you would have been better off spamming reflex and missing 40% of your shots (in this scenario, energy spent and damage dealt is comparable but reflex actually would have done the damage in much less time: about 30% faster). Even as is currently tho, thunderbolt is still quite useful for charging up while changing positions and dumping the damage around corners. Also the multi-shots can be good icing on top, but its hard to count on those. I have defended it in the past and love it to death but now I must admit it is inferior due to the huge energy cost of a charged blast.

    #12745
    DarkwingDiva
    DarkwingDiva
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 23
    Replies: 205

    Honestly, I don’t want to comment too much on weapon balance until I can play with all the weapons and all the weapon upgrades at will. I do like a lot of the suggestions, and I’m sure they would probably help us now, but they could end up being changed again as soon as all the weapons come out and the weapon upgrade system is in place.

    Also, I agree with LotharBot, a forum is a place of discussion. If you only intended it for the dev team, you could always send them an email with your feedback at [email protected]

    #12748
    ViciousFluid
    ViciousFluid
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 23

    Honestly, I don’t want to comment too much on weapon balance until I can play with all the weapons and all the weapon upgrades at will. I do like a lot of the suggestions, and I’m sure they would probably help us now, but they could end up being changed again as soon as all the weapons come out and the weapon upgrade system is in place.

    Also, I agree with LotharBot, a forum is a place of discussion. If you only intended it for the dev team, you could always send them an email with your feedback at [email protected]

    Well spoken in all facets. I wanna see the sp/mp influence on weapon use as well before giving a broad judgement. I think OP’s feedback is accurate, but many of those problems seem to be addressed with upgrades, as previously stated by TC. I’m VERY interested to see the next update with all the feedback the dev’s have been getting. will be neat to see the community impact!

    #12749
    Eauxcaigh
    Eauxcaigh
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 8
    Replies: 54

    Weapons should still be well balanced without upgrades. Also “+” is intended to be the characteristic version of the weapon, if “+” doesn’t feel right, then it is certainly valid criticism and not nullified by the fact that upgrades may alleviate the shortcoming. When comparing weapons at equal levels of upgrade (none, +, ++) there should still be a reason to use each weapon.

    If one weapon is grossly underpowered, adding a new weapon won’t help the situation, and if it is overpowered relative to the ones we have now, it will still be overpowered relative to those weapons after new ones are shown. Also, unless I’m mistaken, there’s only one unreleased primary so we actually already have a quorum. Perhaps balance will change in the future (i hope it does), this is exactly why we should provide feedback on the current balance to inform those future changes.

    #12750
    DarkwingDiva
    DarkwingDiva
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 23
    Replies: 205

    I can only imagine how hard it would be/must be to have all weapons perfectly balanced not only at ‘none’ and ‘+’, but the other two upgrades per weapon (both of the ++ upgrades). Especially since the other two upgrades are either/or and have their own set of advantages/disadvantages. They would have to balance each either/or upgrade with both versions of every other weapon. I guess I’d just rather wait until shortly before release before trying to suggest changes for balance. I’m not convinced adding new weapons won’t change things, as balancing is a very give/take kind of thing.

    When comparing weapons at equal levels of upgrade (none, +, ++) there should still be a reason to use each weapon.

    Right, most of which, imo, is based on functionality. Also, you can’t compare weapons at equal levels of upgrade if you don’t have all the weapons, right? Or am I missing something?

    Let’s also keep in mind that all of this would depend on the weapons not changing between now and release. We’ve already seen several fundamental changes to some of the weapons so far. For example: look at the Vortex, which was changed to the Cyclone. Overall concept is similar, but it definitely feels like a very different weapon imo.

    I’m not trying to say the criticism isn’t valid, if it came across like that then I apologize. It is valid criticism for the current state of the weapons. I just personally believe that the current state could easily change due to any number of factors, and that I wasn’t going to comment too much on it until closer to release.

    #12753
    Eauxcaigh
    Eauxcaigh
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 8
    Replies: 54

    all weapons perfectly balanced not only at ‘+’ and ‘++’, but the other two upgrades per weapon

    I think ++ is the level that splits off into two. + is already an upgrade even tho we start with it on CM.

    I wasn’t going to comment too much on it until closer to release.

    I can respect that.

    #12758
    DarkwingDiva
    DarkwingDiva
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 23
    Replies: 205

    I think ++ is the level that splits off into two. + is already an upgrade even tho we start with it on CM.

    I’ll edit my post to reflect that.

    #12789
    TwoCables
    TwoCables
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    Topics: 82
    Replies: 982

    @twocables: Glad to hear all is well.

    Thank you!

    Some notes on weapon balance:

    My personal opinion on what should be changed:
    -cyclone damage and energy consumption increased by about 10%
    -reflex damage decreased by about 10%
    -thunderbolt energy per normal blast decreased from 4 to 3
    -crusher ammo per blast decreased from 8 to 6 (or even 5!)
    -flak distance increased by 10% + 10% of randomness

    WHY:

    Cyclone is inferior to reflex right now and I think both weapons need a slight adjustment to bring them in line. Reflex is more energy efficient (barely) and deals more dmg per second than cyclone (by about 20%).

    The Reflex uses much more energy per second though than any other energy weapon right now. So, with the high per-second energy consumption, it should cause high damage. The Cyclone uses less energy per second than the Reflex and causes just a little bit less damage (not by much), but it has 3 powerful projectiles that spread out which means you can kill multiple bots simultaneously and you can also kill 1 bot faster and easier than you can with the Reflex because you can drown/overwhelm the bot in the 3 ‘streams’ of the Cyclone – or 4 if you get the 4-projectile upgrade. It almost feels like the DPS of the Cyclone in close-quarters is almost the same as the Reflex at a distance – and it uses less energy per second and covers a larger area.

    I use the Cyclone more than any other weapon due to the spread and the damage it causes and its per-second energy usage. For longer-distance shooting where the Cyclone becomes useless, I will switch to the Impulse or Driller – depending on my mood or how much Energy or Ammo I have. I might use the Reflex instead if I know I will be needing its bouncing projectiles within a second or 2. Or, if I’m just in the mood to do long-distance killing with the Reflex, which I have actually become extremely good at.

    I know that many people feel the Impulse projectiles travel too slowly. I used to think so too, but I don’t feel that way anymore. Just as with the Reflex, I have become quite good at long-distance killing with the Impulse on moving targets, including bots that are in Runaway Mode – and as we know, they move much faster in Runaway Mode.

    I also did some testing and found that the Impulse travels just a little faster than all of the Laser Cannon levels in Descent, including Super Laser Level 5 and 6.

    Top it off with reflex having a longer effective range, and homing bounce and I see no reason to choose cyclone over reflex.

    So my answer to this is, the Reflex uses much more energy per second (I think it has the highest per-second energy usage of all of our automatic energy weapons). So when a robot is within the Cyclone’s effective range, it’s a much better choice than the Reflex unless you are simply in the mood to use the Reflex – which I sometimes am! The Cyclone is also superior for shooting a group of robots simultaneously and it uses less energy per second than the Reflex. I feel I can’t stress that enough.

    Even inside the range in which cyclone does full damage, it is actually more effective to spam reflex right in their face. The recommended changes make reflex a bit less efficient than cyclone and make cyclone the correct choice for max damage within its effective range.

    I suppose, but with the spread of the Cyclone, you can shoot multiple bots at the same time and your per-second energy usage is, again, much lower than the Reflex.

    I agree crusher is too wasteful with ammo. Flak has the same damage per second further out (yes, that’s how close you have to be to max out crusher effectiveness, FLAK is further out!) and with more than twice the ammo-efficiency (damage/ammo spent). I think flak should travel just a tad further (I never want to get close enough to use it on insane), the idea of a small random component to the explosion distance is appealing to me.

    The Crusher can perform one-shot kills though.

    Also, the splash damage from the Flak is much smaller than I once thought. Give it a shot at closer distances than you think is safe and you might be surprised. I mean, do a test run to see how close you can get before splash damage occurs. You can get surprisingly close even though it really seems like you can’t.

    Driller is a great weapon because it is so consistent. It actually has quite poor straight-up damage potential, key is that it is much easier to realize its full potential than other weapons. Given its limited ammo and relatively poor damage per second, I try to use it only when necessary and switch off if another weapon could do the job. This appears to me to be the mark of good balance.

    I have to admit that it feels noticeably weaker than the Gauss in D2. That might be intentional though for the sake of balance because as we all know, once we have the Gauss in D2, there’s no longer a good reason to use any other weapon (there are some reasons, but I’m talking about the damage the Gauss causes). So, I’m glad we don’t really have any weapons yet where it’s like, “Finally, I have the best weapon!” For me, no, I’m always switching between all of the Primaries and the Secondaries based on the different situations I’m encountering and the situations I want to create. I never really did that in D2. I enjoyed having the other weapons, but I really only used like less than a third of them at all times.

    Impulse requires you to lead your targets – I don’t think this is a bad thing and personally I find executing proper leading with impulse to be really satisfying. Impulse is a solid pick right now since it is the most energy efficient weapon in the game and has a very wide effective range. Add to this a solid knockback which can pushes away enemies and cause stun-locking and I personally don’t feel like widening its effective range even further (with a speed increase) is really necessary. That said, if they only boosted the speed by 5-10% I don’t think it would be OP yet and it would be a quality of life improvement for a lot of people. Lastly, I just want to remind everyone that there is still an un-revealed primary weapon out there which may or may not satisfy your itch for a fast-moving energy weapon.

    But the Impulse already has an upgrade that increases its projectile speed (the rapid fire upgrade). Besides, its default projectile speed is slightly faster than the Laser Cannon in D2. So I say, just practice with the Impulse more. I did and now I no longer feel that its default projectile speed is too slow. Then with the RF upgrade, the Impulse becomes an extremely formidable weapon. I just finished a Challenge Mode session where I had the RF upgrade for a very long time and I was just having an absolute blast with how much better the Impulse becomes with the RF upgrade. Sure, I love the Quad fire upgrade too (feels like what an automatic Thunderbolt might be like), but I play better with faster refire rates. heh

    Thunderbolt is really difficult to gauge, but I think it is in a good place right now in terms of damage. I think it could be slightly better on efficiency in normal mode: right now it is about half the efficiency of reflex which is already inefficient compared to impulse. If you hit two targets with one blast, then the energy efficiency becomes comparable to reflex so it is kinda forcing you to use it only when you think you can line up the sick multishots. Interestingly, it performs quite well on tap-fire mode, with better damage per second than impulse or normal thunderbolt and better efficiency than normal thunderbolt against single targets. Still much less efficient than cyclone or reflex tho, which I don’t think is a bad thing. Tap-fire SHOULD be an inferior weapon, kinda a last-resort to use when you can’t wait for a charge.

    I just think normal mode shouldn’t be so terribly inefficient that even if you hit every shot and then some (multishots every now and then) you would have been better off spamming reflex and missing 40% of your shots (in this scenario, energy spent and damage dealt is comparable but reflex actually would have done the damage in much less time: about 30% faster). Even as is currently tho, thunderbolt is still quite useful for charging up while changing positions and dumping the damage around corners. Also the multi-shots can be good icing on top, but its hard to count on those. I have defended it in the past and love it to death but now I must admit it is inferior due to the huge energy cost of a charged blast.

    For me, the only way I would go back to using the Thunderbolt once in a while is if it had an Upgrade that turned it into an automatic weapon. With my inferior skills, the only effective way I can use the Thunderbolt is by just tapping the Primary Fire button rapidly and that actually caused me some physical pain once that lasted about 2 days. So, I no longer use it.

    all weapons perfectly balanced not only at ‘+’ and ‘++’, but the other two upgrades per weapon

    I think ++ is the level that splits off into two. + is already an upgrade even tho we start with it on CM.

    Yeah, it’s “++” because we start with just “+”.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #12827
    Eauxcaigh
    Eauxcaigh
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 8
    Replies: 54

    Let me start by saying that I love the style of cyclone as a weapon just as much as the next guy. I’ve always loved the spread-energy weapons: helix was my favorite weapon in D2, I love spreadfire in SL0, and I hope cyclone will serve me well in Overload. My criticism comes from a desire to see it shine 🙂 I’m still not convinced that it is a good choice, and at best it only equals reflex. I’ve been gathering a lot of data on the subject which I shall present in a very “matter of fact” way, which I understand can come off as aggressive since it reads as “nope, you’re wrong”. Therefore I wanted to preface by saying I am open to any and all other data on the subject and I want to have a good discussion; I’m not looking to just shut things down. So without further ado…

    the Reflex uses much more energy per second though than any other energy weapon right now.

    Thunderbolt on tap-fire uses 34% more energy per second and cyclone is actually really close behind reflex, close enough that I think “much more” isn’t fair. This brings me to:

    and [cyclone] uses less energy per second than the Reflex. I feel I can’t stress that enough

    Yes but the key is not how much energy is uses, but how much damage you get for that energy, this is what I was talking about in terms of “energy efficiency”. As I originally described it, I was saying that you could kill a bot at close range faster with reflex AND have used less energy by the time you’re done, even though your energy was consumed at a higher rate. This is a key distinction I want to make because I feel it is important when discussing balance: energy consumption (energy/sec) doesn’t really matter, its all about energy efficiency (damage/energy).

    In the end its a moot point really tho, I was only seeing about a 1% difference in energy efficiency, and after reviewing some more data, I now believe it has actually tipped the other way: barely in favor of cyclone.

    As far as I can tell, reflex has only 6% higher energy consumption and this gains it 2.3% higher damage per second. This gives cyclone an overall energy efficiency advantage of 3.9%

    I admit, I was wrong about reflex being more efficient than cyclone: its not (barely).

    Next,

    you can also kill 1 bot faster and easier than you can with the Reflex

    On this one I still stand by:

    Even inside the range in which cyclone does full damage, it is actually more effective to spam reflex right in their face.

    Reflex just straight up has a higher damage per second. Theoretical time to kill on a kraken (on hotshot) is 1.84 seconds for cyclone and 1.67 for reflex. I went and tested it in game and I got 1.8 seconds for cyclone (yes, with all 3 bolts hitting at close range) and 1.7 seconds for reflex. I determined the actual gap is closer in game because of the faster travel time of the cyclone.

    As for the “easier” part, that’s subjective so I don’t have any data on that but I see where you’re coming from: My tests did show that hitting all 3 streams is effective at washing them out to where they won’t fire back easily. On the other hand, so is hitting them on one side with reflex, which requires about the same accuracy as making sure you hit all 3 streams on target (for me, I understand YMMV). Ultimately it feels easier to me to use reflex since you have a wider engagement range and missed shots often end up hitting anyways thanks to bounce (it has auto-aim, practically the definition of easy). Whatever tho, I won’t die on this hill; cyclone is easier for some, reflex is easier for others.

    So they’re about the same at close range but at medium-long range reflex has a notable advantage because it isn’t limited by the spread. If there is a big enough group of bots you can attack multiple at once and this extends the range slightly, but at a cost: focusing bots down one at a time reduces the enemy threat as you go, slowly taking down multiple bots all at once means they have full capability to fight back all the way until the very end when you kill them all simultaneously. This is a mainstay of RTS micro-management of armies: focus fire is always better.

    In summary on cyclone/reflex I overstated my case, I now recommend an even more modest change: +7% damage on cyclone. This makes cyclone more powerful in close-range and makes the efficiency discrepancy enough to matter. Alternatively, -7% damage on reflex would achieve a similar effect.

    As for impulse, I’m glad to see your data from previous games, so thanks for that. This supports keeping it where it is, which is welcome by me 🙂

    On the subject of flak:

    I’m not afraid of flak splash, I’m afraid of the bot. The more I play insane, the more conservative I get and the less I get close enough to use flak, which is a shame since flak is great! Flak can down a gorgon in 0.55 seconds on hotshot and is 3 times more ammo efficient than driller (in terms of damage/ammo). I just want it to be a smidge more usable by extending how far I can be from a bot and still do damage (not how far I have to distance myself to avoid self-splash).

    Crusher is something I overstated my case on too, the ammo issue is still there but not to the extent I once believed. Main issue is you end up wasting a lot of ammo over-killing targets and I feel like this wasn’t properly accounted for. At close-mid range I tend to keep using driller since damage is more consistent and usually more efficient (driller of all things! more efficient! it should not be so…). And of course once you get in close, flak is miles more efficient (even an ideal-point-blank crusher is only half as efficient as flak) and may not get the one shots but it still kills stuff blisteringly fast (70% faster than cyclone).

    Wow that was long. PM if you have any questions about specific data points I gathered, such as attacks to kill, fire rate, energy consumption, etc.

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