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This topic contains 28 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  hypersonic 24 May 2018 @ 11:07am.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 29 total)
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  • #17092
    Yoshimitsu
    Yoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    For a while now I’ve been wanting to create a visual representation of the 3 flight modes and this is what I came up with.
    Chording modes
    In each case the colorful shape surrounding the ship shows the possible area you could reach in an equal time (say 3 seconds). As you can see All-way lets you move in single directions faster but is quickly overtaken by Hybrid and Trichord when you add more vectors.

    #17094
    D2Disciple
    D2Disciple
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 81

    Interesting diagram. I’ve (accidentally) been playing on all-way for some time, and I was wondering why bi-and tri-chording didn’t seem to speed me up. I changed too full tri-chording, but I’m not a fan of how slow forward movement is. Maybe I need to move to hybrid so I can get back some of that single- and double-axis speed when I’m not tri-chording.

    #17096

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    It would be nice if there was a setting declaring that the all-way accel/speed be a certain percentage of tri-chord’s bi-chord speed.

    With 100% the sphere on your graphics would reach the cube’s edges, but not corners. All-way would have a slight advantage with uni-chords while tri-chord would have a slight advantage with tri-chords. It would roughly even out if uni-chords were used the same amount as tri-chords. Unless people tend to uni-chord alot more than tri-chord. If that turns out to be the case then simply lower the server setting percentage so the overall speeds equal out. This will ensure that neither flight mechanic has a overall speed advantage over the other (it could also be used in reverse; to ensure one does have the advantage over the other.) Maybe average speed tallies could be displayed (factor out times when no thrust is applied.)

    Perhaps All-way and tri-chord could be renamed as:
    -‘All-way’ tri-chords as well (simply meaning vertical/horizontal/longitudinal thrust activated at the same time)
    -‘Tri-chord’ goes in all directions as well

    Maybe rename them by your graphs
    -rename all-way to ‘sphere’
    -rename tri-cord to ‘cube’

    Perhaps Hybrid could be rounded cube?

    #17097
    Yinut
    Yinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    Good job, Yoshi. Very clean and easy to understand.

    #17107
    sfischer
    sfischer
    Overload Team
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 105

    FYI, Yoshi’s graphs are based on actual numbers, so they are pretty accurate.

    2 additional tidbits.

    1. When Single-chording, boost is more of an advantage to Trichording overall, because they all get to the same forward speed. This is less relevant when bichording/trichording while boosting.

    2. When *not* counting boosting (it just complicates this and makes it harder to estimate), Your best movement type for overall speed is:
    Single-chord > 60%, Use AllWay
    Single-Chord < 40%, Use TriChording Between the two, use Hybrid

    #17109

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Though boost only goes forward and you can’t fire while boosting, so only on some occasions can it substitute unichording. For example, when side strafing across a room laying down a volley of lasers.

    To me I don’t see why specific thrust directions should be faster than others, allowing one’s orientation to be independent of move direction. Other’s feel that vector components should always be maxed regardless of the state of other components. No one is right and no one is wrong, and thankfully Overload supports both lines of thought.

    You mention single chording usage as a deciding factor, I could be wrong but I think regardless of one’s chosen flight mechanic, bi-chording is probably used more than uni or tri. Is there a way to log overall average speed and log %usage of each of the chords? With the ability to adjust allway speed to a % of tri-chord’s bi-chord speed it should be possible to dial in a value that equalizes the overall speed for all flight mechanics. Hybrid being the average between the two I suppose. This would also allow servers to set handicaps if so desired.

    #17111

    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    I don’t think it’s particularly useful to think in terms of “average speed”, except in the case of speedrunning. In general, people slow down when they don’t need to go fast, and they speed up when they need to go fast. It sounds trite saying it that way, but it’s true. Experienced pilots often go from stopped to trichording to single chord to dual to tri to stopped again over the course of a few seconds. They could have a higher “average speed” by always moving full bore, but the goal isn’t highest average speed, it’s having the speed you need when you need it, in the direction you need it, while also having the control you need. Hold still to fire down a hallway, trichord to dodge incoming shots, dual-chord to balance speed with visibility/readiness, single-chord backwards while firing at an enemy, trichord to flank them after they approach too close, stop suddenly as your opponent overcorrects so you can shoot them in the back, etc.

    Trying to balance the movement modes based on average speed is pointless. Even selecting a movement mode based on average speed is not a particularly good choice. Select based on what fits with your movement style. If you tend to move in one axis at a time and don’t really slide much, use all-way. If you tend to use multiple axes because you’re making your ship do multiple things, trichord.

    #17113
    Sirius
    Sirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    Another curious thing is, given the geometries of the cube and rounded cube, hybrid may actually be the most effective choice on an analog input device.

    #17115

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Aye, time not thrusting should be factored out of any average speed calculation.

    Even with the ability to set the allway speed, trichord would still have faster trichord speed, and allway faster unichord speed. However the uni-chord forward boost depletes much of the uni-chord speed advantage, except for unichord strafing (but I think most bi or tri chord strafe anyways.) With that depletion and the fact that allway also has a slower bichord speed, I would imagine allway would have a lower average speed, in most cases. How much I don’t know, having some stats on it would be useful though, along with how much each chord was used. Slightly slower might be alright as bi or tri chording can sometimes mean putting your aim direction in a not so desirable direction, but alot slower could make allway pointless.

    “If you tend to move in one axis at a time and don’t really slide much, use all-way”.
    You could slide alot and use only one ship-relative cardinal-axis to accomplish this sliding, though I don’t know why would one would ever subject themselves to just using one cardinal-axis at a time unless they are very new to the controls. Sure sometimes it makes sense, like you said firing down a narrow hallway while going backward, or say shooting north while moving from a door to the west to a door to the east, but only occasionally.

    “If you tend to use multiple axes because you’re making your ship do multiple things, trichord.”
    I suppose you mean multiple ship-relative cardinal-axes components (lateral,vertical,longitudinal.) An axis could also simply be a vector in the direction of thrust. Regardless of the chosen flight mechanic one can only have one resultant thrust vector at any given time, and all that is occurring is choosing what direction it points to (be it uni,bi,or tri chord.) The magnitude of that resultant thrust vector is the only difference between all of the flight mechanics.

    You could be tri-chording ship-relative, but at the same instant be uni-chording map-relative when breaking down to cardinal axes components (and vice versa.)

    By multiple things I suppose you mean like flank, dodge, back up, etc. Ya with trichord orientation is important for balancing thrust magnitude and aiming direction. With VR ship orientation doesn’t affect visibility though as you can look in any direction relative to the ship.

    “Another curious thing is, given the geometries of the cube and rounded cube, hybrid may actually be the most effective choice on an analog input system.”
    Ya using say a 3D mouse reaching the very corners of a cube isn’t easy, though with an analog keyboard it shouldn’t be a problem.

    #17117

    hurleybird
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 41

    Do we actually need multiple movement modes? I mean, did anyone, and I mean anyone, ever complain about the nature of how tri-chording worked in D1, 2, or 3?

    (Of course this is somewhat rhetorical. You’ll find some autistic dude somewhere on the internet who will complain about anything if you look hard enough)

    The vast majority of new players doing single player won’t notice or care one way or the other. The vast majority of vets want trichording. The vast majority of competitive players want a consistent and even playing field. So what’s the actual point of exposing this option? Seems like it’s something that was added on a whim, or to satiate someone’s very particular and individual bugbear, but there’s no real up-side that I can see despite reducing the overall elegance of the game’s design. And given that exposing too many things and overwhelming players with customisation menus and various options has been explicitly mentioned as something to avoid (which even lead to the two-weapons-per-key situation), how does this pass muster?

    #17118

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Originally Overload came with a hybrid system (toned down trichord), then later came allway (no trichord) and trichord (full trichord). Nothing wrong with having some options that suits different folks, adds some spice to the game.

    One nice thing about allway is that it allows full independence of orientation and translational thrusters. Unlike with trichord you don’t have to concern yourself with ‘this orientation will align this diagonal thrust direction along this corridor’ kinda of stuff. While others like trichord for those very reasons, balancing orientations between optimal aiming direction and aligning to a diagonal for maximum thrust.

    An omni-directional boost scheme allowing one to fire at the same time would have been nice, but Overload adopted D2’s forward only aburn while disabling firing. Basically when close you could boost circle strafe around your opponent faster than they could turn, but when out of boost they can turn faster than you could circle strafe. Combine that with allway and you could orbit them along any orbital path at a constant speed while keeping the recticle on them. You can sort of do that with trichord, but you’re limited to specific orientations/orbits.

    #17121
    Sirius
    Sirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    I think it got in more or less as a compromise between different philosophies. Some people liked it, and as far as I can tell the veterans among us just shrugged our shoulders and said “it’s not hurting the game, so suit yourself I guess”.

    #17124

    hurleybird
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 41

    Who are “some people”? I mean, the intersection of people who are invested enough to actually notice the difference between trichording modes and prefer not to use trichording seems like it’s going to be bascially non-existent. No?

    #17125

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    People not even aware of the concept of normalization probably have the expectation that all directions are treated equally, as is the case in most games they play. Could be a good starting flight mechanic, then the other mechanics could be explored as they become more experienced. People then can make their own decision on what flight mechanic to play based on their own experience, play style, preference. However if one speed mechanic is much faster than the others across many play styles people might gravitate toward it just for that reason alone.

    Overload might be the first allowing normalized, unnormalized, and partially normalized movement.

    Going faster via chording was common in games made before 1996, even Doom and Duke Nukem 3D had it. It’s just what happens with raw unprocessed input, it was never intended as a feature for any of the games. iDSoftware removed it in Quake (1996) and all games after via normalizing, and most games that I know of after 1996 all normalize (allway.) I’m not saying normalizing is better or worse, but normalizing is something many are familiar with and play with often.

    Did Forsaken (1998) normalize? Descent 3 (1999) had tri-chording as the first 2 in the series had it.

    #17138

    hurleybird
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 41

    People not even aware of the concept of normalization probably have the expectation that all directions are treated equally, as is the case in most games they play.

    Expect? Sure. Notice or even care either way? Unlikely.

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