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  • #16422
    maniak1349maniak1349
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 18

    I don’t think that combo bonus is such a good thing for the game. Different amount of points for different robots is good thing but combo is not. It just a personal opinion and I know a lot of people will probably disagree with me but here goes.

    I know that combo bonus was mainly introduced to counter excessive robot kiting which should be addressed – I agree. But I think it is way to punishing for players preferring slower and more careful approach to the game. The scoremaking system when being put into the game itself should be as unbiased about player performance as possible without promoting any specific play style.

    Lets look from standpoint of a slower player – he will play a game, he will feel that he did really good this time, scored a lot of kills, survived for a long time and yet after the run game itself will say to him – you suck at this. In such a situation there is only 3 solutions for the player – either adapt to the system (which will make everyone play the same even if they don’t want to), or stop caring about the scores (which will diminish the value of scores and scoremaking as whole in the game), or just stop playing.

    And from the lore and logic standpoint (it’s a guesswork but I think I’m not too far from the truth?) – you’re a pilot put down in some kind of a facility filled with rebelling/alien robots. Your task is to deal with this mess safely and efficiently and get away. You obviously want to live another day. Safe approach is a logical choice.

    Combo system does not completely deal with abusive behaviors too. It deals with one thing and introduces another – now you can fly around without fighting, stack a bunch of robots in one place, kill them all at once and rush for nearby follow-up kills for maximum bonus then rinse and repeat. In a way combo system makes you think how to beat the point system even worse then before instead of just letting you play the game and have fun.

    So I think that combo bonus should go. I would be all for better less kitable and more dangerous robot AI. But from what I’ve heard it’s too late for major robot behavior changes. My suggestion to simply address the issue in this situation is to keep some sort of pressure on player but at least make it less direct and obvious. Right now amount of robots killed (or rather with amount of combined robot power destroyed) defines current robot difficulty – lets just throw time in this equation. Whether player will or will not kill robots the difficulty will increase but it will be players problem to keep up with this increase.

    #16423
    flyingtiger
    Participant
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 10

    How about a compromise: Every time you get hit (regardless of damage to make it simple), the combo bar decreases. I forgot how much the combo bar increases for every kill, but say that for every kill, the combo bonus increases by 100. Then for every hit you take, the combo bonus decreases by 50 (or whatever amount balances the play types out). So this way pilots do have an incentive for more aggressive play, but with some risk. It also separates out the highly skillful pilot that can constantly dodge attacks. The combo bar would still decrease by time, but I would make it a little slower.

    I think this method would be fair for both the tactical pilot and the aggressive pilot (like myself :P)

    #16424
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    1) There is no perfect system
    2) Combo bonuses are popular (I actually had to push back against making them stronger!), so you’re in the minority there
    3) On Insane+, everybody is a hit and run player
    4) Leon_A is a slower paced player that has put up some nice scores, so it can be done on lower difficulties.
    5) The Devs have already weighed in that they aren’t changing the combo bonuses
    6) Allowing enemies to collect in an area and then slaying them all carries risk. First, allowing them to collect may cause you damage. Next, killing many enemies quickly causes a lot of respawns, often near you which is often a big source of damage loss.
    7) Playing slow is often something punished in games. In all of Descent multiplayer for example, players who do not engage will quickly fall behind on kill totals.

    #16426
    sfischersfischer
    Overload Team
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 105

    I’m not really arguing for or against it, but a couple of items about this…

    Even the more aggressive players won’t be able to keep the multiplier up the whole time if they want to live as long as possible. Additionally, it’s unlikely for the ‘survivalist’ players to never get multipliers. The system favors more aggressive/faster kills, but living longer is generally a better way to stay in it rather than slightly faster kills.

    As for time, in a ‘realistic’ scenario in which waves of enemies are being killed, having time be a factor is logical as well. Maybe a Reactor is about to blow. Maybe you have to ‘buy time for your allies to regroup’. Maybe people are dying on another moon, so you need to end this problem ASAP. Even if it’s not obvious, time is almost always a factor in things.

    No matter what we do, our design of the game is going to encourage/discourage certain playstyles. On higher difficulties, you can’t just use Secondaries or just TB – you’ll run out of ammo. Reflex works better in tighter levels than TB, which shines more in open spaces. When your armor is low, Armor drops are more frequent, but not frequent enough to be super aggressive.

    Every decision that is made about gameplay and design affects how well certain playstyles work. That said, I really liked the Elder Scrolls games, but in vanilla Skyrim especially, I felt exactly what you’re complaining about. If I played the way I’d most prefer, enemies would be ‘too strong’, because i like leveling up side skills that didn’t make me stronger in combat. To fight this, I rolled another character where I used my understanding of the system to make my character strong, but they got too strong. I was fine with either ‘approach’, but neither was fun, and I didn’t like the middle ground, because I’m weird. They wanted me to play a middle ground, and I preferred the extremes. A scenario like this in our game sounds terrible ;).

    …that went slightly off-topic and rambly for a bit. Either way, I see both sides, and hopefully the current implementation isn’t too bad for either camp…

    #16427
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    I like the combo bonus because it adds something interesting and fun to CM even though it’s something I don’t pay much attention to. When I actually begin playing with it, it makes CM more fun because it’s giving me some more variety. I think CM would be less fun without it.

    However, I do agree that care should be taken so that it doesn’t leave less aggressive CM players in the dust, even if they’re doing extremely well otherwise. Of course, I guess I have to remember I can see both the score and the number of kills for any player. So I think it’s still possible to spot the skilled pilots because being able to see both the score and the number of kills together can show whether they’re more aggressive or more passive.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #16429
    YoshimitsuYoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    It would be nice if the kill count and favorite weapon stats displayed on the website leaderboards.

    How about a compromise: Every time you get hit (regardless of damage to make it simple), the combo bar decreases.

    I love this idea. I think it would make the bonus mechanic both more fun and better balanced. As player who likes a mixed style, I think this would be a good way to go.

    #16435
    DurandalDurandal
    Participant
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 10

    It would be nice if the kill count and favorite weapon stats displayed on the website leaderboards.

    How about a compromise: Every time you get hit (regardless of damage to make it simple), the combo bar decreases.

    I love this idea. I think it would make the bonus mechanic both more fun and better balanced. As player who likes a mixed style, I think this would be a good way to go.

    Doom16’s Arcade Mode’s multiplier would also decrease whenever you got hit, so maintaining a good score would also involve not getting hit too. As it currently stands I don’t think a combo bonus penalty on hit would be particularly necessary since the combo bar decays quickly enough already, but if it were to decay more slowly in the future after a balance change then I think having this kind of penalty would be important for the balance so the bonus can’t be maintained at its maximum indefinitely.

    #16499
    luponixluponix
    Participant
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 24

    But then bots with drillers like the reaver should be nerfed a bit as it is really hard to prevent their damage

    •[OOTS]•

    Prepare for Multiplayer

    #16503
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    It would be nice if the kill count and favorite weapon stats displayed on the website leaderboards.

    How about a compromise: Every time you get hit (regardless of damage to make it simple), the combo bar decreases.

    I love this idea. I think it would make the bonus mechanic both more fun and better balanced. As player who likes a mixed style, I think this would be a good way to go.

    I really don’t get it. The idea for the combo bonus is to award aggression, but if you take one damage the combo stops?
    No thanks!

    #16506
    flyingtiger
    Participant
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 10

    I really don’t get it. The idea for the combo bonus is to award aggression, but if you take one damage the combo stops?
    No thanks!

    No the combo bar wouldn’t stop. It would chip away a bit quicker. Say the combo bar is full and every time you get hit, it chips away a bit quicker (say 5% of the bar for every hit) in addition to the combo bar depleting by time. In this case, you would make the depletion by time a bit slower. This way those that are not the aggressive type can take some advantage of the combo bonus (but obviously not as much as those who are aggressive).

    #16511
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    Long story short. Yes extra score for chaining kills together is good. Being in the combat should be rewarded. Anyone can run away from a fight and chip away at the robots from relative safety, few can go Rambo and live to tell the tale.

    EDIT: Also the combo system serves as a fix for the optimal strategy being avoiding combat. While anti-kiting measures had a very real effect, you can still play fairly passively. The problem with passive play-style being optimal, is that games drag on forever, especially on lower difficulties.

    #16516
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    I really don’t get it. The idea for the combo bonus is to award aggression, but if you take one damage the combo stops?
    No thanks!

    No the combo bar wouldn’t stop. It would chip away a bit quicker. Say the combo bar is full and every time you get hit, it chips away a bit quicker (say 5% of the bar for every hit) in addition to the combo bar depleting by time. In this case, you would make the depletion by time a bit slower. This way those that are not the aggressive type can take some advantage of the combo bonus (but obviously not as much as those who are aggressive).

    I understood it correctly the first time, but perhaps didn’t communicate well — That still sounds anti-aggression, which was the whole point of the combo system. I think they’ve already stated in the thread they’re done tweaking the scoring system, so I guess we can argue about what is theoretically best 🙂

    #16517
    flyingtiger
    Participant
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 10

    Ahh okay gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood you. Yeah I figured that was the case. I like the current system anyways, but always fun to talk about possible tweaks.

    #16518
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Ahh okay gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood you. Yeah I figured that was the case. I like the current system anyways, but always fun to talk about possible tweaks.

    ah thanks for being so polite 🙂 but the mistake was mine. Talking tweaks is fun, I agree.

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