- April 20, 2018 at 7:46 am #16715
Ok, I know there was a mouse limiting discussion back in 2016 but I wanted to just touch base on it here in 2018 and as it relates to MP.
Admittedly, I hadn’t touched this game a whole lot. I looked at it and tried it enough to know that it was worth purchasing. I have now played it for about 11 hours and have taken a more serious dive into settings and controls.
I am not and never have been a single player kind of guy. I have played Descent since the mid 90s and still play competitively today on the Descent Champions Ladder.
I switched form Joystick to Mouse a few years back and am now a KB / Mouse player.
Until recently I played with mouse limiting on Very Strong. A few days ago I switched to Strong. First, even at Very Strong I am much more maneuverable than I ever was in Descent. Now, I just tried out the Very Weak mouse limiting and Normal. HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!! I feel like a complete cheater at those settings. To the point where I don’t want my enemies to be able to turn like this and aim like this in MultiPlayer.
Personally, I can’t fathom people using anything other than strong or very strong which already provide far more capable turning speeds than Descent ever did.
My personal preference is to make things as even across the board as possible. I’d personally prefer to see Very Strong or Strong as the ONLY options for everyone! Now, I understand that my personal preference likely won’t come to fruition.
Now, for me to take this game seriously and compete in it I would need for the ‘host’ to be able to enforce a mouse limiting setting as well as an aim assist setting (I’ve never tried aim assist, admittedly). Host would also need to be able to control which weapons spawn in the level and how many spawn.
There is a tremendously huge difference between Very Strong Mouse Limiting and Very Weak. Very Weak feels like 180 flip on an orb. It feels like cheating. I would presume that anyone not on kb/mouse will be at a disadvantage greater than usual.
Also, I have dozens of ground pound games that I can play if I want that ‘very weak’ kinda limiting feel. I was really hoping that Overload would provide something more unique. I like it when the ‘pryo’ has to follow some laws of physics including inertia. I like the way the game feels at very strong, and strong is acceptable.
When you are using settings below strong this game becomes ‘point and shoot’ and seems to involve little else. At the higher settings, you will also have to be mindful of ship position and strategy that takes that into consideration. To me that seems far more interesting than just more of the same.
For those of you familiar with highly competitive Descent players such as Birdseye, Mark392 and myself….ask yourself. Do you really want to see those guys play with ships that basically have no limits holding them back in what they can do!?
(BTW: I am thinking in a context of competitive 1 vs 1, not ‘multiplayer or single player’)April 20, 2018 at 9:23 am #16716YoshimitsuKickstarter BackerTopics: 57
There’s actually been a fairly lively debate on this subject in Sirius’ thread in the last couple of weeks.
I tend to agree with you but then I’m a joystick player with very limited MP experience. Ultimately I think that a server option is the only way to go so that each host can choose what to allow. I think that has the best chance of letting everyone have the kind of experience they want.April 20, 2018 at 11:25 am #16720rapturKickstarter BackerTopics: 29
Also, I have dozens of ground pound games that I can play if I want that ‘very weak’ kinda limiting feel. I was really hoping that Overload would provide something more unique.April 20, 2018 at 12:54 pm #16724MiasmicKickstarter BackerTopics: 3
Seems that everyone**(the vast majority) who is in strong favor of enforcing a limiting option are the guys that still play Descent. I get it, you guys want Overload to feel the same, but that is not an approachable (or in my opinion all that enjoyable) experience in Overload. Overload is a modern game with it’s own feel. I want Overload to bring in as many people as possible. Beyond that, I want it to feel good when I play it, and to me that is with limiting at normal (though I’ve been trying off recently).
An option for host limitations seems to be the only real solution, but it’s going to segregate what is likely to be an already small community. If limiting is forced wholesale, there will be just as many people, if not more, that won’t play MP as if there were no host limitation options for that reason alone. It changese game feel too much on an individual basis. It would require everyone to run with those settings in every mode for consistency sake just to play MP.April 20, 2018 at 1:36 pm #16725
If you don’t give options to allow people to play the kind of game they want… You’ll have something worse than segregation. You’ll just have fewer people playing the game at all. Perhaps the majority will be like you and want normal or lower settings but you won’t really know if the Devs don’t give us options that allow us to create the game types we want. Remember, I paid just as much for this game as you did. Give me the option to host how I want. Don’t force me into ground and pound mouse look which shouldn’t even be possible Ina ship. IMO.April 20, 2018 at 2:04 pm #16727papersailboatKickstarter BackerTopics: 19
Going to have to side with Miasmic here.
The thing is, for the joystick users, you need to make a choice between whether or not you prefer the feel of the stick or the performance of the mouse. I played Descent with a joystick, but I’m going to play Overload with a mouse. It feels good. I like it, I’ve adjusted. It’s much more precise. The team did an outstanding job making that feel good.
> Give me the option to host how I want.
I don’t know of any popular multiplayer game where depending on which game you join, you would experience controls differently (unless there was a low grav mutator or something). This would pose a huge problem for newcomers who have no idea why their controls aren’t working as before. It might even be frustrating enough that they may disregard the multiplayer experience altogether which will only accelerate player entropy from multiplayer post-launch.
Not everyone has a great joystick, but most have a decent mouse. It makes sense to me that the mouse might be a higher priority. I am sure the balance will be adjusted even post launch in a way that makes most people pretty happy so I wouldn’t worry too much.April 20, 2018 at 2:19 pm #16731MiasmicKickstarter BackerTopics: 3
If you don’t give options to allow people to play the kind of game they want… You’ll have something worse than segregation.
That’s exactly my point. My position doesn’t restrict anyone from playing how they want. Enforcing limitation is what degrades that experience. Like I said though, an option is obviously going to be the only thing to make everyone happy, but it’s going to segregate the community. That is an inevitable outcome. I also believe it will push new players away.April 20, 2018 at 3:04 pm #16736DarkwingDivaKickstarter BackerTopics: 29
I stopped posting for off the topic reasons, but this is too fundamental a topic to stay quiet on. All of this is my own opinion. SUMMARY IS AT THE END.
I am against any FORCED mouse limiting. There seems to be two main reasons why people want it: A) Joystick/gamepad users who see mice as an unfair advantage and want limits on mice to make it fair to them, and B) users who believe that having slower turn rates add to the experience of positional combat.
My primary concern with ‘A’ is that by limiting the mouse turn rates, you basically turn the advantage of mice into a disadvantage, essentially making it unfair for mouse users. Limiting joystick turn rates won’t accomplish much since I doubt many joystick users have their turn rate close to max. I’d hate to have one user base “nerfed” because the other sees it as unfair, especially since mouse users will outnumber joystick users. Joystickers will get exactly what they want, and mouse users will be forced to accept less then ideal conditions if they want to play.
My primary concern with ‘B’ is that (like mentioned in the other thread) if you adjust too heavilyl, then you are basically forced to play positionally. I think this argument is slightly exaggerated, and only really applies to the top level players. Also, how quickly can someone turn and immediately hit their target (that’s not right next to them) in Overload with no mouse limiting with something other than the driller? If mouse limiting is forced to promote positional combat, then I feel it would require the maps to be very carefully designed so that you can play that style, but still have compelling combat, instead of just who can run and flank the fastest/best.
I’d also like to offer a similar concept. In a lot of online multiplayer games, you get players with a better internet connection than others. Some players have lower pings, and sometimes it can be significantly different causing the players with the lowest ping (say 25) to have a significant advantage over those with higher pings (100+). Should we limit this advantage to make it fairer to those who have a lower ping? (basically should we add a minimum amount of “lag”). I think most (and I’m just guessing) would say this sounds silly, and I counter that limiting mouse turn rates to make it fair for joystick users sound equally as silly to me. Not a perfect analogy, but close to enough to make my point I think.
Then also, do you limit it only in multiplayer? That could cause some frustration if you can choose what you want in SP and CM, but MP you can’t. Sure, giving the server option to specify could work, but what about matchmaking? You’d have to have two seperate matchmaking systems, one for limited and one not (to give players options). I can tell you if mouse limiting was forced to strong or very strong, I wouldn’t bother playing multiplayer. Weak or maybe even Normal is as high as I’d tolerate. I agree that Overload isn’t a true FPS, but it also isn’t a true flight simulator.
I would also point to Descent Underground as an example of what a Descent like game would feel like when mouse turn rate limiting is taken too far. Mouse control is one of the biggest issues people have with the Early Access version, so much so that Descendant even said they completely overhauled the system in their internal build to make it better.
This might be much like tri-chording boost, where it’s impossible to come to a consensus. Maybe Revival can come up with a way to meet in the middle (much like the tri-chording dilema) so that each side accepts it even if they don’t completely like it. Sadly I don’t have a proposed solution, but I feel all aspects need to be discussed so Revival can make the best choice.
SUMMARY: Severally nerfing one player base to satisfy another is not the solution imo. Any forced limiting should be small or an option given for those who run dedicated games (not matchmaking). Also, a majority of players will be mouse users, so Revival shouldn’t put the majority of players at a disadvantage. In my opinion.
EDIT: This post might sound a little harsher than I intended, so I’m sorry if it does, I don’t intend to do anything other than discuss.April 20, 2018 at 3:19 pm #16737PilotKickstarter BackerTopics: 3
If game host would ever be allowed to set mouse limitation, then it should be possible for those searching for games to be able to select preferences for what kind of game they wan’t to join. Then those wanting to play without mouse limitation would not ever automatically join in games, for which they don’t wan’t to. Private matches are a thing of their own, since players agree the rules before the game is launched.April 20, 2018 at 3:51 pm #16738YoshimitsuKickstarter BackerTopics: 57
I actually agree %100 with both sides of this which is why I keep saying that an option given to the host of a custom game is the only realistic choice. Thank you Darkwing for bringing up matchmaking. I agree that limiting has no part of casual MP and the matchmaking servers (where most new players are likely to end up anyway) should not enforce limiting. It should only be in custom games which may or may not need a password to join. I also think pilot has a good suggestion that games with limiting should be obvious to people looking to join so they can choose whether or not to enter that server.
The fact is that for me personally flying with joysticks is more important than having Multiplayer at all. I’m already happy with Overload’s joystick flight and Story/ Challenge Modes are already enough reason to play. I want to try MP and enjoy it but if it ends up being too frustrating to play against mousers I’ll simply go back to SP.April 20, 2018 at 4:36 pm #16739BondParticipantTopics: 2
I’ve played with mouse limiting a lot. The honest truth is, that at very strong, I am FAR more accurate than I am otherwise. I spend less time to take my shots, because they are more accurate.
Keep it as is, and the people who play will adapt. Gamer’s ALWAYS adapt. I do not think this is a limiting factor, and the honest truth is that at a very high level, yes I would like to see the most out of a persons skill. I do not want to limit anyone. I think it would call for a more interesting game to watch from a viewers perspective.
I see this game having the potential to be INCREDIBLY competitive and making a serious impact on E-Sports, regardless how “simple” the game is and “small” the team is. It is different from every ground and pound simply because it is 6DoF.
Conclusion: Unlock limitless potential of the best gamer’s in the world. Dazzle the crowd with incredible speed point and shoot. It is 6DoF, there is no current FPS that will come close to this right now. That is why it is going to succeed, and it is different from all the “ground and pound”.April 20, 2018 at 5:06 pm #16742sfischerOverload TeamTopics: 4
If I may add a new wrench to the discussion.
Try out the new Teaser beta. It has a new turning controls option for non-mousery…April 20, 2018 at 5:15 pm #16743phyrexParticipantTopics: 0
Some good posts here. I agree with Darkwing that mouse limiting (as well as any other custom setting really, matchmaking should probably use a standardized ruleset or it will be abused) in matchmaking will be an issue. In addition, assuming there is going to be some sort of official leaderboard for multiplayer it should probably follow the same game rules as the automatic matchmaking.
Maybe seperate “old school” leaderboards/matchmaking with enforced mouse limiting would be an option but the community might not be big enough to make that worth it, up to revival to judge I guess.
As long as the option to host a dedicated server with enforced limitng is there the part of the community that wants to play that way (me included) can set up it’s own leaderboard/ladder and although I can’t speak for anyone else, I think I could live with that.
I would like to adress a (in my opinion) misconception that I sometime see brought up in this discussion.
“Enforcing mouse limiting puts mouse/kb users at a disdvantage vs joystick users”:
I think the d1 ladder pretty conclusively disproves this. Yes, controller and joystick users can compete with mouse/keyboard users but right now most of the top players on the ladder use mouse/keyboard if I’m not mistaken. The extra precision, faster response and better control are simply more important than the greater freedom of movement you get with a joystick.
I also think some people might be misjudging exactly how unlimited mouse affects combat dynamics. Being able to turn around instantly does not make ambushing and getting behind someone an invalid tactic. If anything I predict it will become the dominant tactic because a lot of the other tactics get much riskier or nearly impossible.
What will be affected very strongly are dogfights and close range engagements. With two pseudo-hitscan weapons and a very strong alpha strike weapon in the driller, crusher and thunderbolt respectively, out-maneuvering a competent player in a dogfight will become nearly impossible and closing in will be suicidal. Disengaging will also be much harder. Out-speeding someone’s turn rate at close range will also not be possible anymore, making a “drive-by strafe” from around a corner a lot weaker.
Anyways, maybe I’m wrong about all this, we’ll find out soon enough how it will work out I guess:)April 20, 2018 at 6:49 pm #16746VainiacParticipantTopics: 1
I’m also in the camp who is concerned about the high turn rates and the potential negative effect it may have on the combat. My initial impression is that it is way too high. I’m not convinced making it a server setting is the right way to go though, I’d rather see universal implementation of turn rates irrespective of controller input. Trying to hold off on judgement until we can get some MP games in though.
Any update on the timing of the MP beta?April 20, 2018 at 9:49 pm #16755
Instantly being able to turn all the way around is going to have a dramatic effect on tactic options and execution.
Give me the ability to host private games for 1 v 1 or whatever and I’ll run with it. NP. I’d be content to have 50 to 100 people willing to play this way with strong or very strong mouse limiting enabled for 1 v 1 competition. We don’t need much else. If we have to we’ll meet on our own discord or mumble server and create our own competition ladder.
The ironic thing is….after all the dust settles….years from now perhaps….WE will be the ones still playing the game while the majority who might have been catered to move on to their next ground pounder.
I would ‘prefer’ to have strong/very strong as the ONLY options across the board in both single player and multiplayer. I understand that this apparently will NOT happen….but I’m hoping we can host private 1 v 1s with the ability to enforce any and all settings we so choose as a community of compettive players.
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