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  • #16756
    DarkwingDivaDarkwingDiva
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 29
    Replies: 346

    The ironic thing is….after all the dust settles….years from now perhaps….WE will be the ones still playing the game while the majority who might have been catered to move on to their next ground pounder.

    I think we best stick to discussion about the game and it’s mechanics and less on making broad statements and assumptions 😉

    I’m still holding out hope that Revival will come up with something that maybe no one thought of that satisfies all parties, instead of just going with one extreme or the other. One can dream!

    #16764
    luponixluponix
    Participant
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 24

    balance between mouse and joystick is a very important topic but maybe we should wait with discussing it until we are actually able to play our first multiplayer match

    •[OOTS]•

    Prepare for Multiplayer

    #16766
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    You guys do realize that even with mouse limiting off the ship has a limited turn rate? You can’t turn around instantly. Also Descent’s controls are very sluggish. The fact that you can easily move around someone faster than they can turn is kinda silly. Also fast turning is only really going to be a problem with hitscan weapons like the Driller. Was the big problem in D3 the mouse-look or was it what you could do when you combined mouse-look and Mass Driver/Vauss?

    #16769
    JedilukeJediluke
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 14

    Descent controls most certainly feel sluggish compared to what is possible in Overload. I think Descent got it right. All the vehicles/jets etc that I can think of can fly faster forwards or backwards than what they can when turning. Understanding just how fast one can turn in Descent vs how fast someone can strafe by you is important to know. Ship/reticle positioning become very important. The limitations of the pyro in Descent have ADDED to the richness of strategy available.

    I have to be deliberate in Descent and play with forethought. The ability to turn all the way around nearly instantly by comparison to Descent seriously changes things up. In Descent you have to tri-chord to be able to fly faster than the turn rate of the pyro. This created the necessity of flying in a more 3d orientation in order to pull this off. You aren’t flying straight, you are flying at a 45 basically and slide sideways/down/forward all at the same time in order to achieve the faster than straight-line speed that is possible. The advantage was more speed and the draw-back or balance that exists is now I’m not fully facing forward to see what is coming directly in front of me. Descent has held my interest since the 90s because of all the ways they were able to create BALANCE in that game.

    I hope Overload shoots for a similar balance as well as having elements of the controls that require skill and practice to master that add to the richness of strategies required in game.

    Having no limits is less interesting than having limits and finding ways to overcome them. imo.

    #16772
    YoshimitsuYoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    The bottom line is that not having this as a server option won’t unify the player base. It’ll cause some people to not play at all. Rather than a splinter group you’ll just have fewer players.

    I won’t know how much of an issue it’ll really be until we get to try it for ourselves since I have little MP experience and I’m more curious than anything.

    To bring up another possible workaround, will we be getting the option for private servers? I can’t remember. If we’re able to set up games with passwords then it shouldn’t be too much of an issue for people like the DCL pilots to play the way they want. It’ll just rely on the honor system rather than a game setting.

    Myself I’m actually not terribly competitive. I want to play the way I’ll have the most fun, like everyone does.

    #16774
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Everyone needs to watch my ship jitter video before commenting further.

    I was in the camp that it wouldn’t matter much if ppl could play Normal or Off, I thought it was too hard to control for the benefits. Well, I did some flying in Normal just now on Ace, and dang if I played around more with this I could get good with it likely… but I kinda hate it. As you increase max turn speed, trichording becomes less relevant. On Very Strong, there are so many subtle shifts one must make to stay alive, it really is thrilling.

    I think if a computer were to play optimally, they’d go on Normal or Off and just constantly have their ship jittering (shaking back and forth with the mouse unless you need to aim at a target). Jittering really makes it hard for players to target you, because your ship doesn’t appear to be picking a defined path, it seems to change all the time. With slower turn speeds jittering is punished simply because you don’t move fast enough to trick the robots. At faster turn speeds jittering really confuses the robots, and I bet humans too. Keep in mind, I’ve only seen myself fly this way, I’m not referring to anyone I’ve seen a video of. Most videos I’ve seen of others playing don’t come close to maximizing the potential that super fast turn rates have. I see most Normal/Off players have dialed down their sens majorly to be able to control anything, which is understandable. I have not seen really anyone do the ship jitter I’m talking about except in the video posted here.

    Honestly the most irritating thing is just how fast hands will wear out if you want to be a top player. As turn rates increase, the more you can jitter your ship. The more you can jitter your ship the harder you are to hit. Jittering really helped me avoid robots but exhausted the crap out of my hands and really wasn’t particularly fun to play. Also, you have to adjust everything more the faster your ship can turn — it’s almost like we fly in cycles of adjustments, and the faster your turn speed can be the more adjustments you need/can make mid flight. It’s exhausting. If anything, this is getting out of control and it could potentially turn casual players off.

    My right hand/hands hurt right now but I played optimally (I set an Ace PB earlier on normal but recording was off… I did the video posted as a quick example) I would not be able to keep up optimal play longer than 30-45 mins?, it would tire me out. In any other version of descent I can play for hours on end.

    I actually think this is a bigger problem than I thought originally. I like playing the most optimal way, but this shit hurt my hands and I don’t think was as fun as Very Strong or Strong. It’s amazing what you can do to dodge the golems & reavers, but not worth it at all. I’d need some private games with mouse limiting on to cool down between ‘non limited’ games unless I wanted to play suboptimal in the non limited games. I really think for custom (non default) match making there needs to be choice.

    Ship Jitter de jour:
    Video of Birdseye Jittering on Normal — Future of Overload Multiplayer Might Looks like This

    Edit: This is a sample of how I might move in some dogfighting situations or distress. Constant ship jitter is not optimal, but situationally is very powerful.

    #16775
    MiasmicMiasmic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 59

    Clip clip clip something something cherry pick –

    Most videos I’ve seen of others playing don’t come close to maximizing the potential that super fast turn rates have. I see most Normal/Off players have dialed down their sens majorly to be able to control anything… I have not seen really anyone do the ship jitter I’m talking about except in the video posted here.

    Jittering really helped me avoid robots but exhausted the crap out of my hands and really wasn’t particularly fun to play.…It’s exhausting.

    I think you guys are really reaching for things now. Do you honestly expect people to play like that? Are we running prize pool tournaments or something? Speaking for myself, I would never try to play like that. Watching the video before reading your post, I thought that something was wrong with the game/your control device. I think you guys are strawmanning (for lack of a better word) the absolute crap out of this issue.

    If anything, this is getting out of control and it could potentially turn casual players off.

    I find this to be incredibly confusing. How so?

    I actually think this is a bigger problem than I thought originally. I like playing the most optimal way, but this shit hurt my hands and I don’t think was as fun as Very Strong or Strong. It’s amazing what you can do to dodge the golems & reavers, but not worth it at all.

    So, jittering is unfun, uncomfortable, unsustainable, requires more effort (precision-wise), is exhausting, and ultimately not worth it, but it is somehow beneficial because it confuses the AI so therefore will be abused in MP? I am really having a hard time understanding your position here.

    #16776
    Pilot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 23

    I don’t think the kind of jittering in birseye’s clip will be an issue in MP or not even in CM. I assume currently the AI in CM is adjusted to follow your orientation a bit too much, but AI could be adjusted to counter this. Ie. AI could be made to detect that you are actually jittering and your 3D positional movement could be taken with more priority than your ships orientation, thus you would not fool the enemies anymore.

    In multiplayer I don’t think this will fool anyone for long if not even a second. People will quickly learn to just look into your 3D positional movement and not so much about your orientation. And doing that kind of jittering in open space against human will not fool opponent for a second and in tunnels it is even less useful. You lose so much more with the jittering than you gain against a human that you don’t even want to do it even if it would be possible.

    Only issue with fast turn speed for me is being able to shoot opposite directions within a split second. Not so much that fast turn speed would be used to fool AI/human to miss a shot. Mouse has some advantage(regarding turn speed) with this compared to other inputs, but to me it starts to look more of a non-issue before release.

    #16777
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    Okay let’s theory-craft a bit shall we? The jittering is a defensive move, where you basically sacrifice any real offensive capacity. At best you can force a stalemate with your opponent provided he misses all his shots. At worst your opponent will just fire some missiles at the surfaces near you and deal some damage that way. In the video Birdseye does manage to kill some robots while jittering around, so surely it must work wonderfully right? Well keep in mind the robots are nearly in point blank range and they are just beelining it towards him. Any reasonable player would just keep his distance and spray some reflex or cyclone at him. Technically it might be quite difficult to consistently land shots with the driller, but hey everything needs a counter right? Also keep in mind that while jittering, you’re not exactly moving great distances, constant direction changes slow your ship down, so you’ll be constantly accelerating and decelerating which means that you’re just zig-zagging around in a fairly small area.

    Now to address Jediluke’s point about limited turn rate strategically enriching Descent. Yes it’s true it offers a very unique experience, but it just takes the emphasis away from aiming and puts it more on movement/predicting the enemy. In my very limited descent MP experience I saw 3 main things. First I saw Fusion bumrushing, secondly I saw vulcan sniping/spraying and thirdly I saw a lot of smart missile spam. None of those things were all that exciting. There were so many times where I was confident I could have easily won fights if I could have put my crosshair where I wanted it to be.

    One more thing about the general combat in 6dof multiplayer. All projectile weapons are incredibly easy to dodge if you have even a little bit of distance between you and the enemy, so being able to aim faster becomes even more important.

    #16778
    JedilukeJediluke
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 14

    Yinut, we can all put our reticules where we want them to be in Descent. What I think you mean is… If you could put your reticle where and WHEN you want it to be in Descent if the pyro were capable of ridiculous turn rates.

    Your comments regarding Descent shows your inexperience. Let’s play a 1 v 1 today so you can gain some more perspective.

    #16779
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    What I think you mean is… If you could put your reticle where and WHEN you want it to be in Descent if the pyro were capable of ridiculous turn rates.

    That is literally what I meant, but I suppose I didn’t spell it out enough for you.

    #16782
    zero
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 12
    Replies: 19

    Personally I’ve adapted to the turn rates. I didn’t like them at first but now I feel its superior than any of the descent games. I also want more people playing overload and I feel that the turn rates appeal more to the general public. My only concern is having an advantage over joysticks or gamepads.

    #16783
    JedilukeJediluke
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 14

    Anticipation of your opponent’s intentions is an important element in Descent.

    Super fast turning (Normal limiting and lower) is like a tennis player hitting a fastball from a ball launching machine. He’s gonna get super good at hitting that ball, no doubt, but there are fewer strategies involved because of it.

    Very Strong and Strong (both of which are faster at turning than Descent) is more akin to Raquette Ball. The ball does move very fast but it is less about going to where the ball will bounce first and more about instantly understanding where it will be on it’s 2nd or 3rd bounce, anticipating that and being in position to hit the shot! I personally find that more appealing.

    I am not trying to convince you that everyone should be set to very strong and that the devs should make it so (though this would be my personal preference!)

    I do think that it is important to allow private games to be hosted with whatever limits/settings desired to find the type of gameplay within Overload that they are interested in. Players should be able to see the hosted options and join if they want or seek a different game with settings more to their liking.

    I’m ok with Overload not being identical to Descent as it pertains to mouse limiting (it already isn’t) but do not be so quick to discount the rich gameplay that exists in Descent because of the slower turning physics. Don’t assume that 20 minutes of exposure to it (with high pings at that) is going to give you the same level of deep understanding and appreciation that playing it for 20 years has brought to those of us still competing in it.

    #16784
    JedilukeJediluke
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 14

    Zero, I am also a fan of the more maneuverability that I have at STRONG than I have in Descent. It just gets completely ridiculous at settings lower than that imo.

    It would also be unfortunate to place gamepad and joystick users at a larger disadvantage than what is generally inherent naturally with that choice of input.

    Luck/randomness is much more prevalent in 8 player multiplayer games than in 1 v 1 so I doubt the faster turning rates will matter all that much in that scenario. Then again you know that I have never been a fan of MP vs 1 v 1. I find 1 v 1 to be much more deliberate by comparison. Different tactics involved for MP vs 1 v 1 but the skills do translate.

    #16824
    MiasmicMiasmic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 59

    Your argument – in the most general sense @Jediluke, is that being able to aim quickly removes any strategic positioning element of an fps. There are 100’s of other games that discount that theory. Whether you want to discredit them as “groundpounders” (as it seems the Descent community likes to do) or not, they exist and positioning is just as important as aiming precision.

    **Literally never heard the term groundpounders outside of the Corps until these forums, where it is more often than not used in a derogatory manner.

    Edit: in my opinion, if anything, increased aiming precision/control is going to force better dodging, and that’s something we should all want to emphasize in this game.

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