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  • #16071
    nop
    Participant
    Topics: 5
    Replies: 12

    If I have to read yet another nostalgia drunken “review” of a descent fanboy on Steam I’m gonna puke. People who don’t know Descent don’t buy/try Overload just because it plays like Descent. It doesn’t mean anything to them.

    If I have to watch yet another video of a Descent fanboy playing Overload exactly like Descent I’m gonna puke. Robot generators could’nt be destroyed in Descent, so they are not even trying. Red buttons don’t exist in Descent, so they get ignored. But aaaaahh, useless displays can be destroyed, what a wonderful homage!

    Descent Underground has around 50000 owners on Steam, Overload has around 8000. To make Overload a success Overload needs to be played by people who never played Descent. But Descent fanboys can’t be bothered. They got what they wanted. Except co-op, so they aggressively demand that too.

    #16073
    flyingtiger
    Participant
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 10

    Oooof I usually just lurk the forums daily, but your use of numbers to make a huge assumption just bothered me as someone in the policy field. So here are some stats I gathered from steamspy.com:

    Descent Underground has ~ 40,608 owners and was released on Steam on October 22, 2015
    Overload has ~ 6,558 owners and was released on March 13, 2017 and you also have the Overload Playable Teaser which has ~ 91,305 owners and was released on March 7, 2016.

    You can argue that the Overload Playable Teaser is significantly more popular Descent Underground based on the number of owners, and can argue that Descent Underground is being “killed by nostalgia.” (though you can counterargue that the playable teaser is free so that’s why the numbers are skewed) Both games have been driven by nostalgic players and while Overload does touch upon that nostalgic feeling for former Descent players, the formula has changed quite a bit to attract new players to 6DOF. In any case, you can’t just use number of owners because there’s a myriad of factors that drive that number up.

    I would further argue that the number of owners have been driven by marketing. Descent Underground had a significant presence in the press when it was first released and the Descent name. The Overload Playable Teaser had the reddit AMA and some articles in the press related to the kickstarter campaign. On the other hand, Overload hasn’t had much press, but I think that will definitely change in the coming months when the team is likely focus on marketing (and hopefully a cool trailer soon :D)

    Finally, the number of daily concurrent players has been increasing since the release date (and also significantly more so than Descent Underground). Not to mention that multiplayer hasn’t been released yet for Overload.

    Overall, nostalgia is definitely not killing this game. There’s very high enthusiasm right now (not sure where you see people complaining about red buttons and destroyable matcens), and there’s been very positive feedback. So I can’t imagine the game not being successful. Once the marketing starts, this game will take off.

    #16075
    SiriusSirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    Well. Anything can happen. Success isn’t guaranteed.

    I’m not sure why this thread was created though.

    #16077
    nop
    Participant
    Topics: 5
    Replies: 12

    @flyingtiger I use steamdb:
    http://steamdb.info/app/448850/graphs/
    http://steamdb.info/app/360950/graphs/

    The whole point of my post is “To make Overload a success Overload needs to be played by people who never played Descent”. The Steam “reviews” don’t review the game, they just bath in Descent nostalgia and that doesn’t help the game.
    If you played the new tutorial, then you’ll know that the developers are trying hard to introduce the Descent game play to players unfamiliar with Descent (and introduce new stuff to old players). And yes, Revival PR is terrible. And Descent Underground would be successful (probably) if it wasn’t such a disappointing game in general (never played it myself).

    #16078
    Mike Kulas
    Overload Team
    Topics: 24
    Replies: 186

    nop — Thanks for your feedback. We agree that we must reach beyond the Descent user base to be successful and the tutorial is an example of designing the game with that in mind. And though most advanced players use mouse/kb or joystick, the game plays very well on a gamepad — a PC controller that is much more common than a joystick these days.

    I can’t speak to D:U, though I do believe they did an IndieGala which I presume shows up in their units.

    We have not made a PR push since the Kickstarter. That will begin soon.

    #16084
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Descent Underground failed because the physics of the game suck, not because they tried to wash in nostalgia. Overload will succeed because the physics are great and the robots have character.

    I’d say the Overload team has done an amazing job of both reminding us of great moments of Descent as well as showing us new things. I’ve already played non-multiplayer more hours than I ever did in the old game, abeit 100% in challenge mode but that was mere months.

    Overload team has the tough task of both bringing back the old fans as well as bringing in new blood. Both must be done, and remember the Kickstarter only worked because of the old fans. You can’t stop their comparisons to the old game, nothing the Overload team can do.

    #16085
    PersonicusPersonicus
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 35

    I couldn’t resist, and purely FYI: there are some of us out there who either never played Descent (or any other 6DOF title), or promptly deleted it after a few hours back in the day – my Steam review of Overload reflects that, and more importantly, why I’ve become strangely addicted to the slickness and accessibility of this brilliant arcade shooter, despite being an absolute 6DOF beginner – non-Descenters appear to be few and far between.

    #16086
    krayzkrokkrayzkrok
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 185

    I don’t understand what you’re getting at nop. How on Earth did Descent Underground get 50,000 players if it wasn’t playing upon Descent nostalgia? Because that’s exactly what it was doing, including in the media when it launched. Overload hasn’t reached a fraction of that audience yet because most of those same people don’t know about Overload (hence a lot of reviews and feedback is of the variety “I loved Descent back in the day, but I only just discovered Overload”).

    Of course Overload needs to broaden its appeal from the Descent hardcore, but don’t underestimate how many of those people are out there. That’s why Descent Underground has 50,000 players. Part of the “problem” with the original Descent was a fairly high control barrier to entry; you really needed a decent joystick, and you needed to be good with it. Revival have done an excellent job implementing gamepad (and kb/mouse) control in Overload, so hopefully it will be a lot more accessible to first time players of the genre. The fact that it’s far more polished, accessible and immediate that its competition means it has a good chance of finding a much wider audience, but let’s be realistic, it’s never going to be PUBG (thank goodness).

    #16089
    nop
    Participant
    Topics: 5
    Replies: 12

    I don’t understand what you’re getting at nop. How on Earth did Descent Underground get 50,000 players if it wasn’t playing upon Descent nostalgia?

    Never said that, wasn’t even mentioned in my first post. Of course, Descent Underground (and Overload) capitalized on Descent nostalgia. But there is a flip side to nostalgia.

    Overload should be reviewed like any other game or like an almost forgotten genre that gets a revival. Of course, Descent can be mentioned but as player who never played Descent I would want to know why Overload is a fun/good/different game (or not). For instance, I don’t like the overused genre term 6DOF. It’s a rather technical term and could be applied to games much different than Overload/Descent. I would rather read sentences like “Overload is a cross between a space shooter / flight simulator and a first person shooter, replacing missile play for melee combat, using free Zero-G movement in any direction but in an indoor FPS environment, featuring true FPS face-to-face combat instead of dogfighting, …”.

    Even Revival’s EA presentation on Steam isn’t well tuned for PR. I listened to a media video preview a while ago and they pretty much repeated the dominating standard feature/statistic part of Overload’s Steam page: 15+ levels, 20+ robots, 12+ CM maps, 16 upgradeable weapons, etc.. No wonder someone commented: Boring!

    And yes, it’s a little puzzling why Overload has much less owners than Descent Underground. Maybe they are waiting for the full release. Or maybe DU left a bit of a scorched earth. We’re discouraged to write negative things about DU, so I’ll stop.

    #16100
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Part of the “problem” with the original Descent was a fairly high control barrier to entry; you really needed a decent joystick, and you needed to be good with it. Revival have done an excellent job implementing gamepad (and kb/mouse) control in Overload, so hopefully it will be a lot more accessible to first time players of the genre. The fact that it’s far more polished, accessible and immediate that its competition means it has a good chance of finding a much wider audience, but let’s be realistic, it’s never going to be PUBG (thank goodness).

    The bolded is not true, the guy with the highest #1 streak on the old “Invitational Descent Ladder” used a mouse and keyboard. Joysticks were used by most, but not required at all. What you are actually referencing in terms of barrier to entry is that the old game relied on trichording, where the new game has a less compelling but simpler option to have no trichording.

    Personally I think it’s nice people are accessing the game without learning to triplechord, but I think its at the expense of depth & enjoyment. The tricording setup they’ve made is fantastic, seriously disappointing that most people aren’t using it. I hope those that play without tricording get hooked & then learn in my opinion the most fun way to play 6DoF.

    I also have a hard time comparing my accomplishments to others as a result of a lot of players not using the trichord controls — since they are different, I’m sure one is going to have an advantage compared to the other. Uggh, that part sounds terrible for multiplayer.

    #16109
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    I don’t understand what you’re getting at nop. How on Earth did Descent Underground get 50,000 players if it wasn’t playing upon Descent nostalgia?

    Never said that, wasn’t even mentioned in my first post. Of course, Descent Underground (and Overload) capitalized on Descent nostalgia. But there is a flip side to nostalgia.

    Overload should be reviewed like any other game or like an almost forgotten genre that gets a revival. Of course, Descent can be mentioned but as player who never played Descent I would want to know why Overload is a fun/good/different game (or not). For instance, I don’t like the overused genre term 6DOF. It’s a rather technical term and could be applied to games much different than Overload/Descent. I would rather read sentences like “Overload is a cross between a space shooter / flight simulator and a first person shooter, replacing missile play for melee combat, using free Zero-G movement in any direction but in an indoor FPS environment, featuring true FPS face-to-face combat instead of dogfighting, …”.

    Even Revival’s EA presentation on Steam isn’t well tuned for PR. I listened to a media video preview a while ago and they pretty much repeated the dominating standard feature/statistic part of Overload’s Steam page: 15+ levels, 20+ robots, 12+ CM maps, 16 upgradeable weapons, etc.. No wonder someone commented: Boring!

    Then reply to those reviewers and tell them. This thread can’t accomplish anything. You need to respond to those reviews and tell them what you feel is missing from their review. How are they supposed to know what you want to know if you don’t tell them? How are they supposed to know what you think they should be saying in their review if you don’t tell them? I’m sure your feedback would be welcome, provided it’s presented in a friendly and constructive manner. It’s not doing any good to complain to us about this.

    And yes, it’s a little puzzling why Overload has much less owners than Descent Underground. Maybe they are waiting for the full release. Or maybe DU left a bit of a scorched earth. We’re discouraged to write negative things about DU, so I’ll stop.

    There are a few answers to explain why:

    1. Descent Underground’s Kickstarter began 11 months before Overload’s Kickstarter began. Like starving ants to a pile of sugar, that’s where all the Descent fans flocked to. No one knew that Overload was coming a year later.

    2. Again like starving ants to a pile of sugar, Overload was a new pile of sugar. Have you ever played with ants? I have. Place a pile of sugar out and let the entire colony find it. After a few days, put out another pile of sugar. Regardless of how much time passes, that 2nd pile of sugar will never be as popular as the first one. Granted, this analogy isn’t perfect, but I think it’s close enough.

    3. Descent Underground has the ‘Descent’ name and logo, etc.

    4. This may or may not be the main reason, but Descent Underground started out as MP-only, which seems to be satisfying the majority of Descent fans and even people who’ve never even heard of Descent. There are still people who refuse to get Overload because they only care about MP.

    5. Overload’s Kickstarter began *after* Descent Underground proved to be a huge disappointment. Everyone who put money into Descent Underground had an extremely sour taste in their mouths from that experience and were extremely cautious about Overload being just as big of a disappointment or worse, since it isn’t using the name “Descent”.

    6. “Steam Early Access” in general has a very negative association with it. I’ve seen lots and lots of people say that they’re just going to wait and see what happens because they’ve seen way too many games in Early Access end up going nowhere or getting abandoned. They don’t want to buy it in Early Access because they’re afraid they’ll just watch it be in Early Access for several years. They can’t be convinced that this will be one of the few Early Access titles to be finished and to deliver everything that was promised (and then some).

    7. Not everyone is aware that Overload is being made by the creators of Descent. I know it’s hard to miss that fact since it says “From the creators of Descent”, but you would be surprised by how many people I found on the Steam Overload forum who had no idea.

    8. Revival Production’s Public Relations is severely lacking. Descendent Studios has extremely regular video updates to watch and news updates to read. They also have the MVP of the week thing and a bunch of other things. Forgive me if this is no longer true; I haven’t paid any attention to them since February of 2016. heh The point though is that Descendent Studios is (or was?) always providing something to keep people interested to show that they’re still alive and kicking. Revival Productions is nearly the opposite of that. I’m not saying that I want them to change though. I like their introvertedness.

    9. Speaking of which, Descendent Studios started off kinda loudly. You had to be living under a rock in this community to miss the announcement of their Kickstarter. I think that’s mostly due to Eric “Wingman” Peterson. Revival Productions came on the scene rather quietly in comparison. I think this difference is mostly due to Eric “Wingman” Peterson. He’s extremely extroverted and outgoing and has a huge amount of energy and enthusiasm. Then they have Michael ‘Viewmaster’ Morlan who makes it possible for them to have the production and presentation quality they have.

    10. The cost. I don’t know what you have to pay today to get Descent Underground, but the standard cost to get it in Early Access was $14.95 in January 2016 when I bought it, and Overload is $24.99. So, people just go, “24.99?! lol It doesn’t even have MP! What a rip-off!”

    I think Overload will be quite a big success relatively speaking, but it’ll take quite a bit of time to get there because it will need good word-of-mouth advertising. Thanks to Descent Underground (and all bad Kickstarters and Early Access games in general), lots of people have already made up their minds that they’re not going to buy Overload when it’s finished unless they see others saying it’s worth buying. Even then, those people will probably hesitate. It’ll be up to us to prove to everyone else that Overload is worth every penny, but I think most people won’t be easy to convince in the least bit.

    Finally, and again, if you want people to create better reviews, then talk to them directly.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #16117
    SiriusSirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    The bolded is not true, the guy with the highest #1 streak on the old “Invitational Descent Ladder” used a mouse and keyboard.

    OK, now that was kind of funny.

    The point though is that Descendent Studios is (or was?) always providing something to keep people interested to show that they’re still alive and kicking.

    Paradoxically, that probably slowed them down – the more you’re community-managing, the less you’re working on your game.

    #16119
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    The bolded is not true, the guy with the highest #1 streak on the old “Invitational Descent Ladder” used a mouse and keyboard.

    OK, now that was kind of funny.

    The point though is that Descendent Studios is (or was?) always providing something to keep people interested to show that they’re still alive and kicking.

    Paradoxically, that probably slowed them down – the more you’re community-managing, the less you’re working on your game.

    I always thought what slowed them down was letting the community have too much control over development.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #16185
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    I do not understand what the point of this thread was.

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