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This topic contains 35 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  hypersonic 22 Jun 2018 @ 11:52am.

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  • #8906

    flab
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    Oh man, that video brought back so many good memories! The control is nice and precise.

    The sensor works basically by shining an IR LED at a part of the switch and then sensing how much light is reflected back.

    Those are some good ideas of uses for analog presses of keys. It wouldn’t be too difficult to add multi key press functionality to send one keystroke if you press the key in 25% and a different key stroke at 50% and you could then map those keys in game to those different shot strengths. Maybe I’ll mess around with that some tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion!

    #8907

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    I wish I could have had a solid 200fps back in the day! There were 3Dmice back then. Unfortunately many of those videos are sort of washed out, low contrast. I had my monitor at minimum brightness back then is why, easier on the eyes for prolonged use. HDR would be nice, I wonder if video games will support this in the future.

    Ah so pushing down reduces how much IR light passes through and back? Spring constant about the same as other keyboards?

    Actually what you just said about keystrokes wasn’t exactly what I had in mind, but that’s an interesting thought as well! Say press 25% down for laser keystroke, 75% down fusion keystroke. I was thinking of something like the rate of fire determined by how hard to press the key, though this would have to be programmed by the game. Such as 25% fires at 2 per second (4 damage each), 50% 4 per second (2 damage each), 75% 8 per second (1 damage each) always the same DPS but dished out differently. Just an example, I’m not sure how useful this particular example would be in practice though.

    For games without analog control simulating it with rapid keystrokes might work. For example, press lightly and say 25% of the time it has the key pressed and 75% of the time not pressed. Press hard and say 75% of the time it has key pressed and 25% of the time not pressed. And everything in between. Like duty cycle.

    Does the analog part show up on this tester? Need to press a button to activate it
    http://html5gamepad.com/
    With GamePad API I’ve created 6DOF analog controls for Cesium virtual globe

    Cesium 6DOF

    Google removed the web page API in 2016 so my 6DOF Google Earth mod doesn’t work anymore, but I still have some videos of it in action

    Google Earth
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB1lp1TOY0w
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI2fZ1V9Yb8

    Google Mars
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMPUMN5_K3M

    Google Moon
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndsCvfoOsLo

    I also have some 6DOF analog Quake play videos, poor visual quality though, I had fog enabled and was using Fraps back then instead of Shadowplay.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPpluRMxP_o&list=PLu7ubzox5Ny5NS98FZCx60gxf9_B3r878&index=1

    #8910

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    It uses a photoresistor. At the top of the key press the IR light hits the switch and a certain amount of the light gets reflected back. As you press the key down more light gets reflected back to the sensor and that gives you the range. It is very precise and very quick, so perfect for gaming.

    Ah, I’m following you on the fire rate. That would be pretty cool, but as you said would have to be programmed for the best results. I have experimented with using pwm to control rapid fire key presses and I was not impressed. It “works” but you completely lose out on the analog direction control, so you can only move in 8 directions in each plane, and it is kinda janky looking.

    The analog part does show up in that tester. It is a nice little tool actually. 6dof in Google Earth looks awesome. It is a shame they removed it. Would have made for a nice little demo!

    #8912

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    I’m not familiar with pwn for rapid key presses, though most games have auto re-fire if you hold down the button.

    For analog simulation on 1bit speeds (assuming there is acceleration) software could control frequency and duty cycle. Which frequency works best might vary from game to game.

    Say a frequency of 1 cycle/1 second.
    You press 25% down which will cause the software to alternate between 0.25 seconds keydown state and 0.75 seconds keyup state.
    You press 75% down which will cause the software to alternate between 0.75 seconds keydown state and 0.25 seconds keyup state.

    Say a frequency of 1 cycle/0.5 seconds
    You press 25% down which will cause the software to alternate between 0.125 seconds keydown state and 0.375 seconds keyup state.
    You press 75% down which will cause the software to alternate between 0.375 seconds keydown state and 0.125 seconds keyup state.

    This way you don’t have to manually rapidly tap keys to simulate analog motion with 1bit movement control games.

    #8913

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    Yeah PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) basically accomplishes what you are talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

    It can be effective in some games, but it doesn’t really compare to true analog motion, of course.

    #8914

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Sorry, I miss-read, I thought it was pwn (‘leetspeak’) instead of pwm! Ya I didn’t think it would be as good as true analog, but better than manually tapping away. I would imagine how well it would work would depend on the acceleration in the game.

    #8915

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    A yeah, PWN (Pulse Width Noobification). 🙂

    #9023
    Ion
    Ion
    Participant
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 27

    Wow I didn’t even think these were a thing. Huh, I do like the idea, but i’d probably break them.
    I’d say qwert/asdfg as well as tab z, and x, would be my range of keys to be analogue, since I use those the most for movement in games.

    punished blart on steam

    #9025
    TwoCables
    TwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    Wow I didn’t even think these were a thing. Huh, I do like the idea, but i’d probably break them.
    I’d say qwert/asdfg as well as tab z, and x, would be my range of keys to be analogue, since I use those the most for movement in games.

    No, these would be high-end mechanical keyboards. The chances of you breaking them are FAR lower than the chances are of you breaking a typical membrane keyboard (what most people erroneously call “rubber dome”).

    Prepare for Overload…

    #9028

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    Wow I didn’t even think these were a thing. Huh, I do like the idea, but i’d probably break them.
    I’d say qwert/asdfg as well as tab z, and x, would be my range of keys to be analogue, since I use those the most for movement in games.

    Thanks for the feedback! I’m interested in what types of movement you use with these additional keys (particularly T,G, Tab, Z and X).

    As TwoCables said, this keyboard uses very high quality switches (designed for 50+ million key presses), mounted in a solid steel plate. You would have to be really motivated to make even a dent in this sucker!

    I made another video this weekend that shows an example of what could be done with “dual activation” keys that hypersonic motivated me to develop. This example uses League of Legends, but I wonder if there would be any useful situation where something like this could be used in Overload as well. Something like different shot speed (initial key press is single shot, full key press is quad-shot) or something like that.

    I’d be interested in your thoughts.

    #9039
    Azuvector
    Azuvector
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 11
    Replies: 71

    Thank you for the kind words!

    Basically, we are a technology company that develops interesting technologies and then helps other companies integrate them into their products. So, we are focused on making the analog keys cheap and easy to add to existing keyboard designs so that it will start to emerge as a standard feature on gaming keyboards.
    It is possible to make a 104-key keyboard all with analog keys. However, it would be incredibly expensive. Focusing on a smaller sized keyboard with targeted analog keys keeps the cost much more reasonable.

    How much are we talking here, ballpark, with “incredibly expensive”?

    FWIW too, if you have a general enough interface and open drivers that you can get adopted into Windows/etc(So things are plug and play, and don’t care about how many analog keys are present, 1 or 104.), you’re probably pretty set for wide adoption. There are a lot of gamers around who’d be interested in keyboards like these. Particularly if you’re good about key ghosting too.

    #9040

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    Just for the cost of the sensors for 104 keys at retail it would be about $70 more than a keyboard that didn’t have the sensors. By just focusing on 4-12 keys it would be about $10-$15 more at retail. Of course there are people that would be willing to pay over $200 for a keyboard like that. But, in my opinion, it isn’t worth it because the vast majority of people would just use 4-8 analog keys in gaming. Perhaps in the future, if the technology starts getting adopted, then more creative uses for 104 analog keys could be created. But, personally even I couldn’t see buying a keyboard for more than $200.

    #9042

    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    That video is really cool. that is an excellent example of using various levels of key pushing to cast different actions.

    I really hope analog keyboards become very popular as this will allow people who insist on using keyboard for translational movements to have analog control. PC games have been designed for the lowest common denominator (i.e. 1 bit keys for translation movements) to appeal to as many users as possible. If analog keyboards become the norm, this will change giving more depth to PC games.

    Although I like to use a 3DMouse in my left hand for complete and intuitive analog 6DOF control, having an analog keyboard in my right hand would be an awesome complement. I was thinking of a weapon system where if you lightly touch the key it shoots a spreadfire type weapon, but if you push it hard it fires concentrated lasers. No weapon selection at all, just immediate access to any weapon in your arsenal. For headlights maybe wide beam low range light or press harder for narrow beam high range light.

    #9043

    flab
    Participant
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 15

    I agree completely. I can’t wait for analog keyboards to become the lowest common denominator! 🙂

    Really interesting suggestions with spreadfire vs. concentrated lasers and wide and narrow beam light. Some really cool things that could be done.

    #12641
    Eauxcaigh
    Eauxcaigh
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 62

    …I might find that I like E,S,D,F,W and R better (I haven’t tried it yet because I didn’t know about it until I heard you say it in your video)…

    I currently use WASD for Forward, Back, Left strafe and Right Strafe (or thanks to your video, I might try ESDF now). I also use Q and E for leaning left and right, of course. I’m a little too sleepy at the moment (brain-fried is more like it) to start seeing what I think of ESDF, but I’m sure I’d like it.

    YES YES! Join the dark side, we have cookies!

    Not sure if the video explained vertical movement on ESDF or not, but ‘a’ for up and ‘z’ for down is what I use and recommend to budding ESDF users. It can be tricky to undo WASD habits at first but I find replacing those habits with your touch-typing habits (if you have them) can help. That is, realize on ESDF you’re sitting on the homekeys, think about typing the actual letter you want to hit and this can help you get familiarized with ESDF.

    Also, OP, really cool video, really cool product, I hope it catches on.

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