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  • #16418
    DurandalDurandal
    Participant
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 10

    To me that sounds like countdown mode, and yes a great test of skill. I have seen too many games though which offer multiple play-styles and then through one mechanic or another make all but one unappealing, or unviable. I hate this. I do take your point about our current bonus skewing the relative value of one bot to another. I think the compromise I would want is for the multiplier to be tiny, maybe maxing out at 1.5x. this would give a real bonus without making slightly slower, more tactical gameplay a no-go.

    If I want non-stop aggression I’ll play countdown.

    Particularly the last sentence of your post reminded me of a discussion I had about the possibility of a scoring system in another (aforementioned) survive-for-as-long-as-you-can game, and the pointlessness thereof. Some of the things I suggested previously in this thread would be too poor of a fit for Infinite.

    Ultimately, Infinite is about surviving for as long as possible. You are right that in the grand scale of things making tactical retreats is a wiser thing to do in this mode. Even with the presence of a scoring system, the maximum scoring potential is inevitably determined by your maximum survival time, so forgoing playing aggressively early-game for scoring bonuses in favor of getting hit less and thus surviving longer would give you more scoring opportunities later on.

    The scoring system allows you to reach higher positions by performing more aggressively early-game and keep up with players who survived playing cautiously up to mid-game, but especially with the current flat bonuses the advantages by doing so are quickly dwarfed by just staying alive longer. Ideally, a top player could be super-aggressive and survive very long, but in practice the enemy spawning logic is too RNG-reliant for anyone to be able to perform that well consistently (on higher difficulties).

    For that matter, the RNG involved in randomized enemy spawning positions, items dropped, and enemy types spawned makes it impossible to take full advantage of the combo bar bonus to properly optimize your own score, unless the combo bar decay becomes very lenient. Eventually, the factor which determines high-ranking Infinite runs the most will be Time. You can already see this trend on the current leaderboards, especially on the higher difficulties. Basically, instead of having people fuss more about score because of poor RNG and putting yourself at risk for more points even though the situation absolutely does not call for it, a better solution would be to emphasize survival by ranking players on Time Survived for Infinite. On Countdown a scoring system is very much a must, however.

    That said, I wouldn’t want to see the combo bar gone on Infinite, or at least something like it. Even though picking your fights wisely is the winning strategy in Infinite, having the player run away all the time and take potshots still isn’t any fun. Instead of having the combo bar only affect your score depending on how aggressive you are, it’d be nicer if being more aggressive would also make survival somewhat easier in the form of extra drops (which it already does) or some other kind of helpful boost, which would naturally translate into surviving longer. Though ‘items are are more likely to drop on a full combo bar’ isn’t the most enticing offer, but that’s just me. Alternatively you could encourage getting up close and personal by giving players more of a reason to do a smash attack by f.e. increasing the amount of armor leeched when killing enemies via Smash Attack á la Glory Kills.

    #16420
    MiasmicMiasmic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 59

    @Durandal, the top scores, and whatever range of kill count you want to apply it to, all have pretty similar times. I don’t see any evidence for the fear of playing slow and/or cautiously being a dominate or advantageous strategy. The biggest variance in runs are due to leon_a’s Blizzard runs, which are super long for both Ace and Hotshot.

    #16425
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Just a couple quick responses: We are pretty much done tweaking score values. There have been a few tweaks since 0.9 to a few bots, and to the combo meter. Power level of the bots matters more in increasing the combo meter now. But it’s not a multiplier.

    Keep in mind score is not supposed to be directly related to the damage they cause, it’s just a way to make it more fair if you get harder bots, and to reward aggression a bit more. If something is way out of whack, we’ll change it, but robots are more than just the amount of damage they did to you.

    On invulnerability: We’ll do something. Not sure what, but we’ll make it more consistent somehow. Most likely is different powerups will last a different amount of time, possibly only in CM/MP. We’ll see.

    Thanks,
    Luke

    Awesome! I have been playing Insane+ a bit less than I expected as I do think Yinut is right about the invuln issue — you really have to get lucky and chain a few to get a top score. The other thing I’ll throw out is if you’re going to weaken invuln on Insane+, maybe consider weakening some of the ‘hitscan’ enemies, guardians at the wrong angle or super hydras can wreck all your damage without really an opportunity to dodge. So as Yinut said, you have to do a bunch of Insane+ runs hoping to get lucky on a few fronts: 1) no running into surprise undodgeable hitscanners 2) hit the invuln jackpot.

    Obviously it takes skill to post a top score, it just takes some extra runs that are less fun than the run that ‘goes well’. Not needing invulns and having some decrease in hitscan damage/speed (whatever was done with them) would be a welcome combo. It wouldn’t have to be a big change, just a little nudge down on those hitscanners.

    I can only hope 🙂

    #16510
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    To me that sounds like countdown mode, and yes a great test of skill. I have seen too many games though which offer multiple play-styles and then through one mechanic or another make all but one unappealing, or unviable. I hate this. I do take your point about our current bonus skewing the relative value of one bot to another. I think the compromise I would want is for the multiplier to be tiny, maybe maxing out at 1.5x. this would give a real bonus without making slightly slower, more tactical gameplay a no-go.

    If I want non-stop aggression I’ll play countdown.

    I’d be perfectly fine with the multiplier being a fairly small one, the important thing for me is that it is a multiplier. I’d say this is a good compromise, because while I think that non-stop combat is the true test of skill, I do like the idea of a slower paced play-style being viable.

    Just a couple quick responses: We are pretty much done tweaking score values. There have been a few tweaks since 0.9 to a few bots, and to the combo meter. Power level of the bots matters more in increasing the combo meter now. But it’s not a multiplier.

    If that is the case, then fishing for favourable robot sets will not be fixed. Currently we have plenty of data from strong players such as Yoshi (while not #1 I think everyone can agree he can play well) that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the robot values are not really where they should be. Also keeping the combo as some flat bonus that applies to all robots the same, ruins the proportional robot values which in turn makes robot sets consisting mainly of weak robots highly favoured over sets with mainly strong robots. It really would be interesting to see 2 different people score the same amount of points with one of them having 200 kills and the other having 500 kills, that would tell an interesting tale about what kind of robots these two players faced. Instead we simply have very short and anti-climactic early-death runs if the robot set is truly difficult. Even if you manage to put up a good fight, the score will never reflect it.

    Keep in mind score is not supposed to be directly related to the damage they cause, it’s just a way to make it more fair if you get harder bots, and to reward aggression a bit more. If something is way out of whack, we’ll change it, but robots are more than just the amount of damage they did to you.

    I agree, the robots are also the amount of resources you have to use in order to dispatch them and high armour/HP means that you have to use more limited resources at your disposal. In addition to that we also have a time-sensitive element, the combo-meter. Overall I’d say this means that when determining a robot’s score value, armour levels need to be taken into account.

    Robots could be divided into 3 groups:

    Light – these are your goblins, harpies, ogres etc. All “average damage per bot” values are multiplied by 1.25
    Medium – these are your krakens, scourges, hydras etc. All “average damage per bot” values are multiplied by 1.5
    Heavy – these are your tritons, guardians, Phantoms etc. All “average damage per bot” values are multiplied by 1.75

    On invulnerability: We’ll do something. Not sure what, but we’ll make it more consistent somehow. Most likely is different powerups will last a different amount of time, possibly only in CM/MP. We’ll see.

    Here it depends how competitive you guys want to make the game-mode. An easy fix would be simply to remove cloaks and invulnerabilities. Alternatively you guys could just give fixed guaranteed spawns at certain score intervals, for example: at 100k you get an overdrive, at 200k you get a cloak, at 300k you get an invulnerability and then the cycle repeats. Also about the CM/MP note, these thing definitely need to be separate from single player. In single player things can be wacky and that’s completely fine. In Multiplayer especially I reckon a lot of people won’t react too well to wackiness. Ultimately I’m a very competitive person and everything I say is generally biased towards “let’s make the game more competitive”.

    @durandal, the top scores, and whatever range of kill count you want to apply it to, all have pretty similar times. I don’t see any evidence for the fear of playing slow and/or cautiously being a dominate or advantageous strategy. The biggest variance in runs are due to leon_a’s Blizzard runs, which are super long for both Ace and Hotshot.

    That is however not the case for everyone *wink wink nudge nudge*.

    #16512
    MiasmicMiasmic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 59

    @Yinut, Of course no generalization can apply to everyone or every circumstance, but if you take a range of kills/scores, you will likely get a pretty consistent range of times.

    I totally understand that alot can happen in 2 minutes of a run, especially the end of a run, but I also think that seeing a scoreboard full of 15:15’s (or whatever) would indicate a problem – more-so than the *unevidenced* fear of other people gaming the system by kiting bots to achieve higher scores.

    ***
    That being said, I imagine Insane and Insane+ are particularly susceptable to kiting abuse and likely show the biggest variance in times (haven’t checked). I’m not real sure what can be done about that, as I don’t tend to play Insane. However, Insane also makes keeping your combo meter full a lot more risky. So I think variations in score will be wider when comparing times. So it’d be pretty easy to spot.

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