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  • #3954
    StatiCStatiC
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 89

    The diehard Descent-multiplayer veterans are going to be a minority of players. A very vocal and not unimportant minority, but you guys are a niche of a niche. :) The majority of the (potential) audience does not have and never *will* have the reflexes and experience to know or care whether trichording exists or not. Most of them probably won’t ever try the eventual multiplayer.

    And they can keep not caring or knowing about tr-chording and go on with their life playing Overload single player or multiplayer with their friends and having fun. Some here have already stated they didn’t know that chording was even in the D1 game and had a ton of fun playing even though it was in the game and they didn’t know it. So it seems like leaving it in with the same speed d1 had it is a win win situation. Single player still plays well… competitive multiplayer gets what they want. Everyone is happy.

    I have yet to hear someone say they had a bad experience with single player in d1 or d2 because of chording. I have heard just the opposite though.

    #3955
    sushicw
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 21

    I have yet to hear someone say they had a bad experience with single player in d1 or d2 because of chording. I have heard just the opposite though.

    For me, having to fly at goofy angles to move at maximum speed through levels was always a “pain point” that annoyed me and I remember very distinctly. It was less of an issue in D2 and D3 because of the afterburner, though, and a solid afterburner implementation (that doesn’t drain excessive energy) would probably solve the problem well enough for me.

    I just get a bit worried when nearly everyone chiming in on the subject is thinking only of multiplayer, and I don’t want the concerns of us single-player folks to get lost in the shuffle. Trichording is the current example, but it won’t be the last issue where the competitive multiplayer community wants something that might be at odds with optimizing the single player experience.

    #3956
    StatiCStatiC
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 89

    I can see where in D1 you could be annoyed since it didn’t have an afterburner. If you wanted to go faster at all you had to bi/tri-chord. Luckily d2 and overload do of course have an afterburner. I bet some will want an option in Overload to disable the afterburner for a more d1 like experience in competitons :). I am hopeful Revival looks as the source mods to d1 and d2 to get a feel for what competitors want and make them options in the game to enable. Those type things do not need to infect/affect single player.

    This is again where I think options for multiplayer hosting would help if there is an area where balance in single player would be an issue. Based on how Overload plays though already… I have confidence that Revival will know the right thing to do to satisfy both the single and multiplayer users. They have already surpassed what I thought could be done with a next gen 6DoF game. Overload looks, feels, and sounds awesome already and it is just a teaser!

    #3958
    rapturraptur
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 29
    Replies: 134

    And they can keep not caring or knowing about tr-chording and go on with their life playing Overload single player or multiplayer with their friends and having fun. Some here have already stated they didn’t know that chording was even in the D1 game and had a ton of fun playing even though it was in the game and they didn’t know it. So it seems like leaving it in with the same speed d1 had it is a win win situation. Single player still plays well… competitive multiplayer gets what they want. Everyone is happy.

    I have yet to hear someone say they had a bad experience with single player in d1 or d2 because of chording. I have heard just the opposite though.

    I think Luke is worried that they might inadvertently design single-player levels that are too difficult to complete without trichording if trichording has a significant speed boost. I’m sympathetic to this worry. For example, it’s probably difficult to design homing missiles that are challenging, but not invariably fatal, for both players who know and don’t know how to trichord.

    I think I read somewhere that five difficulty levels are planned. I think it would be ideal to have full trichording (~70% speed boost) for all five, design the difficulties so that the first three can be reasonably completed without trichording but the highest two do require trichording, and then advertise trichording to the player in some way.

    #3963
    d3jaked3jake
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 118

    The diehard Descent-multiplayer veterans are going to be a minority of players. A very vocal and not unimportant minority, but you guys are a niche of a niche.

    Our number is irrelevant. Fact is that we’ve played thousands of hours of Descent, and tried out other games. We have more substance in our posts than “this is silly” or “this might hamper gameplay, but this other (speculative) idea might fix it”.

    The majority of the (potential) audience does not have and never *will* have the reflexes and experience to know or care whether trichording exists or not.

    I don’t know if you realize how marginalizing, and disregarding this statement is.
    Saying that new players won’t care or be able to use trichording is a great way to try and dismiss the importance. At best, it’s an assumption with no backing.
    Reflex speed: Come on? Really? With all of the twitch shooters out there, you can’t claim that players won’t have the correct reflexes.
    Know or care about it: They may not know right away, but neither did the current players that champion it. They’ll learn once they get stomped into the ground enough. Then they’ll learn to wield it the same as any other.

    Most of them probably won’t ever try the eventual multiplayer.

    Based upon what? I can make baseless claims too, but it doesn’t improve the discussion at hand.

    #3964
    d3jaked3jake
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 118

    I have yet to hear someone say they had a bad experience with single player in d1 or d2 because of chording. I have heard just the opposite though.

    I’m wondering how players ran to the exit after blowing the reactor on the higher difficulty levels without it…

    #3966
    rapturraptur
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 29
    Replies: 134

    Uh, StatiC said that, I just quoted it. Before I knew about trichording, I managed to make every exit by practicing the exit runs several times.

    #3970
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    For the record, everything I have said is for what I would want my single-player experience to be. I couldn’t care less about multiplayer to be honest with you all.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #3975
    PumoPumo
    Participant
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 27

    For the record, everything I have said is for what I would want my single-player experience to be. I couldn’t care less about multiplayer to be honest with you all.

    The same here… 😛
    Please, don’t kill us for that! D:

    http://pumosoft.3d-get.de – Pumo Software official Website
    – Pumo Mines progress: 60%

    #3979
    Sergeant ThorneSergeant Thorne
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 12
    Replies: 138

    I’m quite happy to play whatever Luke and the team come up with, and I think it’ll be awesome, but let it be known that players love extras, and they love extras that have to be discovered or uncovered. They love a challenge! They love to gain an edge by doing something that is not easy to do. I don’t know, maybe there are weird people out there who don’t like these things, and would prefer we all paint by numbers and everyone have the same color of crayons. Not me. Think of it as a reward to the people who play your game the most. Make sure there’s something there for us. 🙂 <3

    I think this best explains the attachment that some people have to tri-chording.

    #3980
    Verran
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 18

    I’m with Static on this one.

    If it’s such a big deal: make it a setting (like auto-leveling).

    In singleplayer, you can use it or not use it. It’s up to you.

    In multiplayer, make it a host setting: therefore enforced on all players in the game. If a player wants a chording match, then they won’t join non-chording one; and vice-versa (the setting must be visible in multiplayer match browsing, of course).

    Is it hard to handle in code?

    If not, problem solved. If so, I feel your pain.

    OT: Personally, I’d do the same thing with being able to shoot while afterburning.

    #3984
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    In multiplayer, make it a host setting: therefore enforced on all players in the game.

    One of the things that has kept the Descent community going even through some really dark times is that new players could always learn from veterans (not necessarily “high skill” veterans, either, but casual players who are also experienced and know how to get connected.) New players always have the opportunity to run in to experienced players in the mines, to learn the ropes, to be introduced to organizations (like Rangers and DCL) and be included in the “family” of Descent. I would worry that treating trichording like an “option” or a “mod” would tend to create isolated pockets of players who never had the opportunity to connect with the wider community.

    #3985
    Verran
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 18

    We have pockets today. People who prefer D1 over D2, and vice versa. People who like group games over 1v1s, and vice versa. People who like certain control setups vs others. Different games modes, weapons, etc. Some people are willing to try and participate in things they may not enjoy, whom may enjoy it after practice and persistence. Some don’t.

    Everyone has opinions. You can’t please everyone. Give them options and let the chips fall where they may. Or don’t, and still watch the chips fall.

    #3986
    StatiCStatiC
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 89

    Since D2 was a success for single and multiplayer with tri-chording I am sure Revival will find a good compromise just like they did in D2 through play testing, intuition, or just by being the gods of the Descent series like they are :). I am not the least worried about tri-chording with single and multiplayer. I doubt there will be a need for an option… I was just trying to say that if all else fails… they could have it as an option in case it does mess with the single player balance. History has shown that a good compromise is possible. D2 is my favorite of the series (soon to be Overload :)).

    #3992
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    We have pockets today. People who prefer D1 over D2, and vice versa. People who like group games over 1v1s, and vice versa.

    Yes — but there’s a LOT of crossover between those pockets. In the last 24 hours I’ve personally played D1, D2, and D3 in both small and large games. The rift is shallow, not deep. Making trichording a server option would be the deepest rift that has ever existed in Descent, far deeper than D1 vs D2 or even MP vs SP.

    Remember Luke’s initial comment: whatever you do with trichording affects the rest of the balance of the game. If you make it an option, you have to balance everything for both variants. Which basically means you end up making two separate games that don’t play at all the same, with every single weapon behaving entirely differently, and at least one of the two versions will get inadequate attention (possibly both). Why make two mediocre games when you could make one good game? One of the 6dof projects named Into Cerberon actually tried to do that, and it collapsed soon after. (Partly this ties in to d3jake’s comment about being dismissive and marginalizing — are we being thrown a bone just to shut us up? Or are our insights actually valued?)

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