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  • #1414
    YoshimitsuYoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    It depends on the situation and how you set up your motion. I sometimes trichord in different arcs around my target so that my reticle is pointing straight at them. This allows you to trichord dodge and return fire at the same time. Granted I’m not very good at it due to my lack of practice in multiplayer but the possibility is there. That is something that I think might be overlooked sometimes, the notion that trichording is not just useful to move you quickly from A to B but is also good in a semi-stationary dogfight when combined with the rotation axis to do a 3D circle-strafe around opponents.

    All of this is made easier by my dual joystick control scheme which lets me use all the axis at once while also firing and even having fingers left over for other tasks.

    #1418
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    Its a de(s)cent mechanic that gets overrated by collective nostalgia.
    I remember Talon (you know, that game we never talk about any more for some reason) had an interesting idea with being able to turn it on or off

    This might actually contribute to why we don’t talk about Talon much. Of the dozens of 6dof games, the ones that get the most love have consistently been the ones with trichording.

    It’s not nostalgia speaking. It’s experience. We’ve tried games with and without it. It’s better with, because it creates a richer decision-making experience — good pilots will often go from trichording to single chording and back to trichording several times in a five-second fight, because there are advantages and disadvantages to both movement modes. If every type of movement is the same, then you don’t need to deal with the tradeoffs, you just always move at full speed and always keep your guns pointed where you want them.

    #1429
    SiriusSirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    What? How can you trichord and fire at the enemy at the same time? Trichording keeps you pointed away from the direction in which you’re flying.

    Why would you be firing and using the afterburner at the same time anyway?

    First question: in this scenario you’re not flying toward your target, you’re flying past it and strafing it with fire (although you could just fire a single shot when you’re lined up too, depends what your weapon is). This can be useful sometimes, although it’s probably easier done dual-chording and almost as effective.

    Second question: This is a common maneuver in multiplayer D2 and actually quite effective when timed well. If you afterburn while sliding left or right, and firing an energy weapon like quad lasers or plasma, you pack the shots closer to each other and can form a “wall” of fire that many pilots have a lot of trouble surviving. The afterburner isn’t just an escape tool – it can be used aggressively with enough practice.

    #1433
    DarkhorseDarkhorse
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 127

    You’re not going to get a lot of assent with that idea here, but I’m going to agree and say that a lot of Descent players are more attached to the idea of trichord for emotive reasons than practical ones. It does have small advantages in gameplay but nowhere near as significant as the ability to move sideways at all. But frankly the advantages of removing it just aren’t there at all, so it makes more sense to keep it in.

    #1434
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    Well, I am pretty sure Luke mentioned in the 1-hour live stream that trichording will be in the game as well as bichording. I’d try and find it, but I’m not going to scrub a 1-hour video for that one little moment.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #2719
    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Just thought I’d add a quote reddit to this thread:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/45xltb/we_are_matt_toschlog_and_mike_kulas_creators_of/
    “Here’s the deal with Trichording: if the ship has three sets of thrusters (front/back, left/right, and up/down) then you’ll go faster if you use three thrusters at once. We’d have had to do work to make that not happen. I don’t know if we would have done that, but none of the original developers use trichording.”

    BTW this thread is acting odd with March posts mixed in with February posts, most threads are sorted entirely chronologically.

    #2723
    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Why should 8 directions be faster than the other directions? Obviously people want full speed ahead at all times, so this essentially limits the directions of travel to those 8 directions. Same with Aburn, why does it only operate in one direction? Ships would be more unpredictable if ‘regular burn speeds’ and ‘aburn speeds’ were the same magnitude in all directions.

    #2731
    Dacien
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 8
    Replies: 106

    I agree with Lotharbot. There’s no question that it adds a layer of depth to the gameplay, in my mind. Once you’ve mastered six degree movement, there’s yet another skill to learn to become even better. That’s good game design.

    #2741
    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    I understand the desire to learn another skill to become even better, though designating 8 directions as the fastest doesn’t seem quite right, though there’s no wrong or right answer, just personal preferences.

    Doom had bi-chording to go faster, but like Descent it wasn’t by design. They removed it in Quake, though other quirks were discovered, such as bunny hopping and rocket jumping. Quake 3 has bunny hopping rocket jumping as well, just toned down quite a bit so it didn’t get out of hand.

    It would be cool if there were 6dof quirks other than simply chording where everyone moves diagonally all the time. Bunny flying? Maybe missle jump off of walls where you take reduced damage from your own blasts?

    #2744
    grendelgrendel
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 21

    Talon died because its developer got distracted and because creating maps for it is very complex (it was the best 6dof “clone” at its time and still ranks very high on my list.) The developers of Retrovirus decided not to enable true trust vector addition (tri-chording is a misnomer, all 6dof games allow movement in up to 6 directions at the same time. Not all add the movement vectors with the “correct” math tho.) That and them neglecting the joystick players made it a dud.

    So, yeah, if Overload will be one-speed-fits-all I won’t touch it w/ a 10ft pole.

    #2747
    SiriusSirius
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 406

    There is some precision movement stuff that can matter at times. Not everyone can dodge a homing missile in a standard square cross-section hallway, but it is possible. Not everyone can outrun a mega missile with no afterburner, or dodge an earthshaker that landed behind them, but it is possible. Chording does often feature in these moves, but it’s not enough just to be able to do it, you have to be able to do it exactly when you need to and in the right direction.

    Other than that, though, 6DOF doesn’t really lend itself much to tricks. Why would you need an extra-powerful jump when you could just… go up? It’s not a platformer by nature, which means freedom of movement is the norm, not the exception.

    (That said, giving teammates a speed boost by landing a missile or mass driver shot from behind, while uncommon, was not unheard of – and actually useful in certain situations like D3 CTF. Provided friendly fire damage was off, otherwise they might not appreciate it so much.)

    #2890
    sushicw
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 21

    When it comes to trichording, count me in the “no thank you” camp. It’s a mechanic that pushes you to play in a way that looks and feels silly. I’d rather Revival design something that provides the same sort of “interesting trade off” aspect but without the “I now have to spend 90% of the game facing walls if I want to move quickly through the level” factor. IMO the afterburner-means-you-can’t-shoot thing achieves that fairly well.

    And if we’re talking about multiplayer balance, do you want people with VR to have a huge advantage? Because those with VR (or trackIR, or whatever other headtracking) will be able to completely ignore the main downside of trichording and adjust their viewing angle to look at where they’re flying.

    I won’t be hopelessly upset if it makes it into the game (Descent had it, after all) but if it disappears, so much the better.

    #2905
    Drakona
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 41

    Sometimes something initially unintended becomes iconic to a game. What had been perhaps a bug or at most a we-didn’t-really-think-about-it becomes a feature. Rocket jumping certainly is that. Trichording definitely is.

    You can try to obsolete it with a burner if you like, though I’m skeptical that you’ll succeed. D2 had a very powerful burner and good pilots still found trichording very useful. D3’s burner was in some ways better than D2’s and trichording was still a big deal. It’s just . . . useful! It gives you options! But yes — that does give a new pilot a way to fly at top speed, and that may be a good thing.

    You can argue whether that depth attracts or repels new players, and that’s a very fair argument to have. My experience is that pilots are very technical people who by their very nature don’t have trouble with vectors ( 🙂 ) — but your mileage may vary.

    But I’ll tell you one thing that’s certain — if you take trichording out, you will anger a lot of people who are expecting it. Not in a small way, either. They won’t play the game at all, and they’ll feel very betrayed for having supported it. This is not merely a case of wanting to make use of a practiced skill to preserve an advantage or even being used to the way something is and having never thought about changing. These pilots have tried it both ways — I have tried it a lot of ways — and we like what trichording does to the game. A lot. In the world of 6DoF games, trichording is very much a shibboleth, a sign of whether or not the developer gets what we do.

    #2931
    sushicw
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 21

    But I’ll tell you one thing that’s certain — if you take trichording <em class=”d4pbbc-italic”>out, you will anger a lot of people who are expecting it. Not in a small way, either.

    Yeah, I can’t argue with that. It’s not a hill that I’m willing to die on, but I don’t like when imperfect and accidental mechanics get enshrined to the point that even *trying* to change them becomes impossible.

    I *do* think there are more options than “trichording on” and “trichording off” that should be explored, and perhaps Revival can find something that pleases everyone (or at least most). For my part, I’d just like to be able to move at maximum speed (OUTSIDE of active combat) without having to stare at walls the entire time.

    #2938
    Drakona
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 41

    For my part, I’d just like to be able to move at maximum speed (OUTSIDE of active combat) without having to stare at walls the entire time.

    That’s really not unreasonable. As someone who’s used to it, I really do like the fact that top speed practically blinds you. But I’ll admit it does look a little odd to see everyone’s ship flying around at a funny angle all the time. 🙂

    A burner that consumes energy and makes noise in exchange for moving faster than a trichord is a pretty acceptable compromise for a newer player. I am not sure I’ll like it in expert fights; I’ve never liked what burners do to the game. Gwar has described burners as a ‘get out of jail free card’, and I really like the fact that combat without one involves the threat of getting pinned down. This is doubly true in dogfights.

    I am skeptical that reducing the effectiveness of slides with burners on is a good idea. I can understand the desire to avoid a burner-chord trumping a straight burn, but I think this is a much slighter consideration. A burner-chord is a much more modest 22% speed increase over a burner instead of the brutal 70% that is single chording vs. triple. Hardly worth it for the visibility. Indeed, rare is the pilot who can make full use of it in D2 except in special circumstances. It’s hard to control something going that fast well enough to fully exploit the speed advantage. (Though my understanding is that it’s a pretty critical skill in D3 for flag running, where every little bit of speed counts).

    And of course the down side of eliminating burner chording is that your slides suddenly stop functioning in their primary role: allowing you to avoid incoming fire. I’m smashing into stationary objects and failing to pick up powerups all over the place in OL on a burn, and it’s definitely not a pleasant experience. I guess I can get used to flying an airplane, and perhaps in time I’ll even come to find the drawbacks make for an interesting tradeoff and appreciate having more than one flight mode in the game. But I don’t know. I’m a little skeptical. If I didn’t consider that sort of thing fundamentally boring, I wouldn’t be here. 😉

    We’ll just have to see, I guess. It’s not obviously a bad idea, but I’m skeptical as of yet that it’s definitely a good one. There are definitely drawbacks. If it is to be an interesting tradeoff, though, I would almost prefer that a full burn go 100% airplane. The sluggish slides we have now just seem broken and frustrating. They work enough to make me think they SHOULD work and I must just not be pressing the KEY hard enough. 😉

    All of that is multiplayer speculation, though, and who knows what will change in multiplayer? In single player, I have much less concern with burners distorting the game for the opponent, and much more concern with what’s fun and practical. Burners make a whole lot more sense as a primary level-traversal-while-not-fighting method than trichording does. The blindness is much less of a sacrifice in single player, since you usually have a pretty good idea of where your opponents are. Shoot, burners with working weapons are way fun, and without opponents to frustrate, may be worth including! There’s nothing like charging at someone at a full burn with guns blazing for the adrenaline and BOOM YOU’RE DEAD factor. This is a very fun type of ninjakill and bots don’t get upset about it. It shouldn’t be discarded lightly. At the same time, trichording should work, so that movement works.

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