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  • #3672
    d3jaked3jake
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 118

    I think some people are so used to trichording after using it for so many years that they just don’t want to have to adjust to any changes, for better or worse.

    That may be the case, but it isn’t any significant percentage of the group. It’s already been stated in this thread that it provides an increased depth in combat when you have to trade an increase in speed for not pointing in an ideal direction. Additionally, games that haven’t featured it have been found to be bland.

    #3683
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    Why are we discussing whether trichording should be in the game? It should be in the game so that those who want to use it will be able to. If some of you don’t like trichording, then don’t trichord.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #3716
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    I think some people are so used to trichording after using it for so many years that they just don’t want to have to adjust to any changes, for better or worse.

    That may be the case, but it isn’t any significant percentage of the group. It’s already been stated in this thread that it provides an increased depth in combat when you have to trade an increase in speed for not pointing in an ideal direction. Additionally, games that haven’t featured it have been found to be bland.

    Exactly right. It’s not like we’ve only ever played games with trichording. Descent pilots have tried out a couple dozen other 6dofs over the years, and very few of them have been good enough to get recommended to the community.

    For the most part, 6dofs without trichording end up with really bland, boring, unimaginative movement. You face where you want to go and fly straight. You face your enemy and slide. For people who love to fly, that’s unforgivably dull!

    Why are we discussing whether trichording should be in the game? It should be in the game so that those who want to use it will be able to. If some of you don’t like trichording, then don’t trichord.

    Also exactly right.

    I think people have a tendency to overestimate the impact trichording had on their getting stomped, and therefore to assume it’s some sort of master-skill. The reality is, if people are stomping you it might be 5% trichording, and it’s 95% that they understand 6dof better than you. When D:U didn’t have trichording, me and Zero still dominated. But trichording might be the thing you notice, because the other skills that are actually leading to the massive skill gap take deeper observation to realize.

    The result is that people want to get rid of trichording to “even up the game”. But it doesn’t even up the game. It just makes good pilots not want to keep playing, because (as d3jake pointed out) it’s dull to fly without it.

    If you don’t want to trichord, great! Don’t bother trichording. You’ll probably eventually do it by accident sometimes anyway, but you don’t have to master the skill to have fun. And you definitely don’t have to take it away from those of us who recognize its role in creating combat depth, just because you don’t personally want to do it.

    #3752
    hypersonic
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 18
    Replies: 220

    Dogfights typically don’t consist of circle-strafing each other – that’s too predictable. Trichording does come into it but in more subtle ways – generally when trying to flank your opponent. Speed matters for that.

    Well flanking is basically another name for circle strafe. When viewed in terms of polar coordinates all you can do is circle strafe and alter your range to a target. For unpredictability you keep altering the direction of the circle strafe, such as instead of going around one’s equator, go around a circle of longitude. Omni-dir a-burn boosting for circle strafe acceleration would make a target hard to follow as well, along with changing range from close to extremely close.

    That may be the case, but it isn’t any significant percentage of the group. It’s already been stated in this thread that it provides an increased depth in combat when you have to trade an increase in speed for not pointing in an ideal direction. Additionally, games that haven’t featured it have been found to be bland.

    Good circle strafing mechanics could be another depth that could be swapped in its place so it’s not bland.

    Why are we discussing whether trichording should be in the game? It should be in the game so that those who want to use it will be able to. If some of you don’t like trichording, then don’t trichord.

    Well the game will probably be designed around certain flight mechanics with the expectation that the user is to use all of it’s features, such as trichording if implemented. One should specify un-normalized trichording, trichording by itself simply means engaging 3 axis at the same time, which may or may not make you go faster depending on how it’s programmed.

    Talon had an option of turning NVT (I think stands for normalized vector translation) on/off. I’m not sure exactly how it worked. My guess is that with it off you go at say bichording speed in all directions, a compromise where un-normalized trichorders can get a slight speed advantage, but not a whole lot. I’m not sure how well that would work though, perhaps this could be explored.

    For the most part, 6dofs without trichording end up with really bland, boring, unimaginative movement. You face where you want to go and fly straight. You face your enemy and slide. For people who love to fly, that’s unforgivably dull!

    With normalized trichording you have the freedom to face in any direction you please and move in any direction at any speed you please, with un-normalized trichording when you don’t trichord you’re robbing yourself of maximum speed. I’m not aware of any 6DOF games out there that balance circle strafe speed with rotation speed. NeonXSZ is the worst in this regard with rotation speed essentially infinite and circle strafe being slow. Un-normalized trichording is sort of like a limited direction omni-dir a-burn with no cooldown compared to an unlimited direction omni-dir a-burn with a cooldoon. With no cooldown one can have this boost of speed all day long making it dull in comparison with having a boost with a cooldown where you have to tactfully choose when to use it.

    (one might consider ‘limited direction omni’ to be conflicting terms, well what I mean by that is basically 14 directions instead of 8, adding for/bac/left/right/up/down when using keys.)

    #3774
    YoshimitsuYoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    With normalized trichording you have the freedom to face in any direction you please and move in any direction at any speed you please, with un-normalized trichording when you don’t trichord you’re robbing yourself of maximum speed. I’m not aware of any 6DOF games out there that balance circle strafe speed with rotation speed.

    That freedom to face in any direction and move at top speed is what Lothar was referring to as making it even easier for a more experienced player to dominate a newer player in D:U. When the better player is allowed to continuously face the newer without a speed penalty and can aim straight at him he will get more kills even faster with less effort.

    Also what on earth do you mean when you say “balance circle strafe speed with rotation speed?” Circle strafing is the combination of lateral (or vertical) speed and rotation speed.

    #3795
    StrifeStrife
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 5

    1 Vote for Tri-Chording. Buncha Tri-Chording haters up in here.

    It’s added literally hours of fun for me just challenging myself to become sneaky and take full advantage of level design. I’m talking the minerva doors people. The first time I saw someone do either one of them, I was in such awe I thought they were hacking. This literally changed the way I viewed and played the game and I am ALL FOR IT.

    #3800
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    For the most part, 6dofs without trichording end up with really bland, boring, unimaginative movement. You face where you want to go and fly straight. You face your enemy and slide. For people who love to fly, that’s unforgivably dull!

    With normalized trichording you have the freedom to face in any direction you please and move in any direction at any speed you please

    Which, in a practical sense, means you’re always doing exactly the same thing: facing directly at the lead point for your enemy. Because there’s no tradeoff, no reason to do anything other than always keep your guns pointed in the maximally threatening direction. It’s very dull to always do the exact same thing in every fight, and never have a tradeoff.

    And it doesn’t actually help “balance” the game, because you know who’s best at keeping their guns pointed in the maximally threatening direction? Experienced players.

    #3802
    sushicw
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 21

    Let’s not forget that most of this discussion is in terms of how trichording affects Multiplayer. I don’t want us to lose sight of the fact that many people interested in Overload are only interested in Single Player. I’m not convinced that “design for MP, backport to SP” is the right way around.

    My own hope is that the devs do whatever it takes to make single player maximally fun and enjoyable before worrying too much about multiplayer. I don’t know what the answer should or will be regarding Trichording specifically, I just don’t want the single-player game to be driven by competitive multi-player concerns.

    #3807
    chromarchromar
    Participant
    Topics: 2
    Replies: 8

    trichording is good for single player too.. think of all the people that wanna do speed runs trichording is one of the keys for best timing 🙂

    #3815
    LotharBot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 133

    Let’s not forget that most of this discussion is in terms of how trichording affects Multiplayer.

    it’s completely relevant for single player, in the same ways. Do you just always face the enemy bot, or is there a tradeoff if you want to evade at high speed?

    #3840
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    I’ve been playing Descent since 1995 and I didn’t know anything about bichording or trichording until raptur made this video on January 23rd of this year:

    When I saw this video, I tried some bichording and trichording by doing it his way. Guess what: I immediately realized THAT I’VE BEEN DOING THIS ANYWAY FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS. I just never did it consciously and I didn’t know it was a skill. Granted, I never flew in straight lines for more than a few feet while trichording or bichording – it mostly happened while fighting and flying around the mines in fancy maneuvers, but I’ve still been doing both naturally for the past 20 years. Hilariously, I never knew I was going faster. I was never like, “oh hey, I’m going faster when I do this”. So, I’d bet that you all do it no matter how hard you try to avoid it. Of course, you COULD practice hard so that you make absolutely sure you never bichord or trichord, but that would be a major waste of time.

    Now that I know what it is and now that I’ve consciously practiced it, I think Revival Productions would be foolish to leave out trichording. As I said, they already put bichording in. You can see this for yourself by doing some bichording. Try some trichording immediately after that and you will see that you won’t go any faster than you do while bichording. Just time yourself to see how long it takes to fly straight from one side of a room to the other while bichording, and then do it again while trichording.

    I still feel that this entire discussion is a waste of time because arguing against having bichording and trichording in a 6-DoF game is an exercise in futility. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of old-school Descent players who will all tell you that a 6-DoF game without trichording isn’t a true 6-DoF game. You can assume that I’d be right there on the front lines arguing FOR bichording and trichording.

    I honestly hope that this discussion soon comes to an end because like it or not, this game will very likely have trichording no matter how hard anyone argues against it.

    Prepare for Overload…

    #3860
    d3jaked3jake
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 118

    What I’ve seen in this thread is a lot of claims that taking out what has been classical to Descent wouldn’t really affect gameplay that much. These are followed my players who have been playing since D1 was released, and have tried 6DoF games without it, and stated in no uncertain terms that they’re all bland.

    To the arguments of “It doesn’t make sense”… It’s a game where we shoot lasers out of a spaceship that can hover in a planet’s gravity, and has shields. Pretty sure we can extend the suspension of disbelief a little bit longer to include a game mechanic that adds variety to combat.

    I think Lothar hit the nail on the head: If you don’t think it makes sense, or don’t want to look at a wall to move quickly, don’t. It’s an important skill, but if an experienced player is drilling you into the ground, it’s likely because they have a better grasp overall. It’s not worth trying to come up with a replacement mechanic. Either it’ll end up being the same result or it’ll kill the learning/difficulty curve so badly that it will let the veterans (who have had 20+ years to hone skills) easily stomp newbies harder than what will already happen.

    Did the Devs ever chime in one way or another? As they’re the original team that worked on Descent, I doubt they’re going to make such a massive change with this game.

    #3864
    StatiCStatiC
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 89

    It is already in the game. Not much more to say I suspect :).

    #3866
    d3jaked3jake
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 118

    Not meaning to be pedantic: Was bichording only implemented, and tri was to be completed soon?

    #3870
    TwoCablesTwoCables
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 118
    Replies: 1474

    Bichording is the only multi-chording currently in Overload. Test it for yourself: compare how long it takes to go from one side of a room to the other while bichording. Then do it again while trichording. You will see that both speeds are identical right now, which means that trichording isn’t in yet. I know it’s in the list of release notes, but I think he meant bichording.

    Anyway, I’m the one who said that if you don’t want to use trichording then don’t use it.

    The devs haven’t chimed in on this yet. Not in this thread anyway. The problem with getting trichording to work is the same as getting bichording to work: you have to create it and it and it has to feel right. In the original Descent, it was an accidental creation.

    Prepare for Overload…

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