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  • #16632
    birdseyebirdseye
    Participant
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 45

    Great post hurley, you always have a valuable perspective to add & express your thoughts well. I barely touched d3 mouselook and it has been forever, so your info is useful.

    I’m now a bit confused on the mouse vs. joy thing. It sounds like Joy players get the same capabilities. Is it an issue that it is harder to do the fine controlling with the joy?

    #16633
    hurleybird
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 41

    My assumption is that a mouse’s generally superior aiming will outperform a joystick’s superior continuous tracking in most cases. Joysticks with a twist axis do have a bit of an advantage as far as movement goes over m/kb users, although rudder pedals can equalise that.

    I think the proof will be in the pudding. If there’s a large discrepancy between controller options, something might need to be done about it, but it’s arguably premature to do anything hastily before public testing even begins. I mean, there are so many different variables that no one is going to get everything right just by theorycrafting. Joystick vs. mouse for turning, joystick vs keyboard for movement, gamepads, rudder pedals, autolevel + 90 degree roll vs free roll, various sensitivity and movement speed options, trichord modes, aim assist, etc.

    My assumption is that the “optimal” setup will be a joystick for movement, pedals for rolling (with free roll and maximal roll speed, which is the same as 90 degree roll), and mouse for aiming, but hopefully no setup is so superior as to render the others a significant handicap. The exception will probably be gamepads, which are like joystick setups but significantly worse.

    I like that a joystick user can turn just as fast as a mouse user by selecting the maximum turn speed. By the same token I like the fact that a free roller can roll just as fast as an autoroller with the right setup. At the very least, this puts everyone on theoretically even footing. I’m less enthusiastic about aim assist and trichording modes. The former feels a bit like cheating, while the later is kind of like players all using slightly different rule-sets, which seems somewhat absurd in and of itself.

    While I can’t say anything for certain before we’ve played actual MP games, my initial thought is that everyone should either be on the same trichording mode for consistencies sake, or the modes should be promoted and given some form of visual feedback. Eg. a slightly different ship model with different thrusters that look and behave in a way that reinforces and is consistent with the selected trichording mode. As for aim assist, because there are hitscan weapons I’d prefer not to see it at all with the possible exception of helping out console players who are relegated to gamepads if there’s a form of cross-play.

    #16634
    maxxmaxx
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 15
    Replies: 34

    Greetings all! I have never considered that any particular control scheme has any advantage or unavailable benefit over another. The fact at the end of the day is that EVERYONE, with the exception of those with actual physical disabilities, has the personal option and final decision on what control interface they utilize. As with every choice each of us is faced with in life, we have to discriminate the crucial differences we perceive and make a value judgement on them. If, for instance, I thought for a moment that a KBM setup was superior for combat flight, then I would endeavor to learn, and hopefully master its use. If I thought any particular Joystick setup was better, I would attempt the use of that interface.
    The very idea that anyone is locked into a particular control scheme and cannot move to another is absurd on its face and should be rejected out of hand. I have used a broad variety of control interfaces since the Overload Playable Teaser was released and have concluded that each of the different control methods has its own strengths and weaknesses, which can be listed, itemized, and prioritized. At that point one must decide which outweighs the others and it comes down to personal preference. I would loathe the idea that choice that anyone selected would be handicapped in any way,shape or form. It doesn’t matter. Each has its own edge. You must simply make a choice.
    I wouldn’t have anyone hobbled to ‘make it fair’. No way. I want every player I ever face to bring the best they have every moment of the game. If I suck so bad I am beaten, then so be it. I will either learn how to become better or find more productive uses of my time. Quite simple actually.
    As to the issue of the various sensitivities available to us as well as the movement modes, let us not worry about their differences as they apply to others. Trichording is a complex skill, not easily executed to its maximum benefit except by the absolute best players, the elite of the elite if you will. That is my take on it anyway, so again, I would not begrudge anyone who has perfected the art/skill. All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth belies the true nature of Multiplayer anarchy. I have faced what I consider to be the best pilot in the world in Rebirth Retromod and yes, he hands me my ass for a hat every single time. (Thank you Birdseye!) That puts the onus on me to improve, and improve I shall. I hope for the sake of competition that everyone can arrive at some agreement that the devs can equalize the weapons they provide, but stay away from the weapons that originate between the players seat and keyboard. The tools are available to all, proper selection of those tools is the sole responsibility of each individual player. So please. lets try not to interfere with each players choice of tools. Like natural selection, the best combinations wind up winning in the end anyway.
    That’s my two cents. Feedback is welcome. Maxx, out.

    #16637
    yencil
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 7
    Replies: 32

    Maxx, I just wanted to note the opposite – I’m mostly just lurking this thread, but I really, really appreciate reading the thoughts of birdseye, hurley, and others who are diving into the details of the different types of controls.

    I think it’s really helpful to discuss it, and to hear the pros and cons of different things. I definitely don’t think anyone should be “gimped”, but just reading the discussion and things like the max turn speed of a joystick is actually equivalent to a mouse, and the fact that the ship has some “turning inertia” making perfect spins more difficult, is all very cool to hear!

    I cannot wait to try to final game, as a joystick player who is also considering trying it with a gamepad. For myself, I’m never going to play a flying game with a mouse – just takes the fun out of it for me, but I’m happy for others to have fun with it = ) as long as it’s reasonably fair for all. The ones who will have the hardest time will likely be gamepad users, I would think, but that also is quite a large market now and worth making it as playable as possible on gamepad = ) (and my dream that this game will one day come to the Nintendo Switch, too!).

    #16638
    Pilot
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 23

    My assumption is that a mouse’s generally superior aiming will outperform a joystick’s superior continuous tracking in most cases. Joysticks with a twist axis do have a bit of an advantage as far as movement goes over m/kb users, although rudder pedals can equalise that.

    This is pretty much what I think about this also.

    My assumption is that the “optimal” setup will be a joystick for movement, pedals for rolling (with free roll and maximal roll speed, which is the same as 90 degree roll), and mouse for aiming, but hopefully no setup is so superior as to render the others a significant handicap. The exception will probably be gamepads, which are like joystick setups but significantly worse.

    I agree that “optimal” would be something in between of all the control choices in terms of maximum efficiency. And I can’t buy that kind of device from a store, instead I would have to build one myself… Though I would be happy enough to get a joystick with a hat switch that would work flawlesly. They always tend to not register presses in certain angles and I’m a sitting duck in those situations(causes some frustration when doing CM). If only there would be a joystick with hat switch replaced by gamepad’s thumb stick. Those work like magic :). If that kind of thing exists I’d buy it right away!

    But yeah, the actual turn speed for doing 360 is pretty much the same for mouse and joystick. The difference comes if you wiggle mouse vs joystick 180 degrees. Then with mouse you can do that faster as there is more inertia with joystick and that cannot be configured out… Though I like the inertia and would not even wan’t to remove it when playing.

    #16639
    hurleybird
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 41

    What about a toggle button for joysticks users so that they can quickly switch between two turn speed and/or sensitivity modes? Eg. one could operate at turn speed +4 when the button is depressed, and something like -1 otherwise, or plug in whatever numbers you feel like. This way one can enjoy the benefits of having both the maximal turn speed, and the ability to exert fine control for aiming.

    That should just about wipe out any overall advantage that a mouse user would have over a joystick user. Even without support in-game, you could certainly do something like this with AutoHokKey, where the state of a button remaps the entire X/Y axis of the joystick to some smaller range. Eg. -256 to 256 becomes -64 to 64.

    #16641
    YinutYinut
    Participant
    Topics: 10
    Replies: 55

    If the past has taught us anything about fps-action, then it is that mouse + KB provides the best aiming potential and as a result has dominated in those games. Overload has a significantly faster turn speed limit than Descent. This means that mouse becomes even more powerful. I’m just going to call it now: “Good mouse users will dominate with pseudo hit-scan weapons like the Driller”. I do however also believe that the flight-model in Overload is very good as well as more beginner friendly than Descent’s and that ultimately everyone has the possibility to use a mouse. Therefore I do not believe “mouse gameplay” needs nerfing.

    #16642
    dues
    Participant
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 17

    I’m on board with KAHA. Getting ppl to play the game who are used to KBM is prolly the best idea. I too play with a stick, and even tho I really love the feel of stick, that style is just so 20th century, and can be a hindrance to top tier play.
    Years ago on the DBB, I remember some guy said something like this: “Tom Cruise doesn’t jump into his F-14 with a keyboard and mouse, he uses a stick.” I don’t know why his statement stuck with me, but at the time it seemed to make sense. Later, I learned that KBM is actually the defining winning setup. It goes into other games as well, like Warthunder. It doesn’t make much sense, but that’s just the way it is. Groundpounder games were just more popular and flying game designers had to make mouse a viable input device, knowing most ppl play with a mouse. A stick or gamepad just doesn’t have the same precision as a mouse. It’s for this reason that cross-platform play is not used in FPS type games. PC users would mop the floor with console users.
    I think it just boils down to what you like to feel and what your goals are.
    I was talking to Luke in a DCL match years ago. He used to play stick, but taught himself to play KBM. His goal was to be the best, it wasn’t really to have the feel. He knew the advantages of a mouse and went with it. Altho I don’t care for his type of sportsmanship, I have to admit he may very well be the best. It goes beyond him too, as most names I can remember use KBM. Birds was king in early years and Zero really was in charge in later D3. It got to the point where you knew what pilots were using for input on what the sounds were on your ship. A rapid succession of vauss, gauss, Vulcan and MD, were always, for me, indicative of a mouser. I think it must be the hitscan weps that really separate the crowd, as their required precision is most effective with a mouse. I don’t think the dodging is different tho in the two inputs, but one advantage is enough to favor a particular peripheral.
    I’m gonna take a wild guess at what the wep of choice will be in Overload MP. Drumroll……….
    Driller.
    And I don’t really care if it’s whored. It’ll just be cool to knock the rust off and play with some new aspiring pilots, and see some familiar faces.

    #16643
    YoshimitsuYoshimitsu
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 57
    Replies: 421

    Well this got interesting fast! So many things to think about.

    The very idea that anyone is locked into a particular control scheme and cannot move to another is absurd on its face and should be rejected out of hand.

    What about consoles? They’re planning cross-platform multiplayer so we’re likely to get many many people who are locked into gamepad (probably the most disadvantaged control scheme of all) and literally don’t have a choice.

    Hurley’s observation that joystick/gamepad users have the option to up our turn rate to match a mouse is true and absolutely fair. I think it’s a good way of thinking about the problem, but in practice I personally find that I have the best control with my turn speed set to 0 or “Normal.” even the little bit of increase granted by the Overdrive powerup makes the ship feel twitchy and uncontrollable for me. On the whole I agree with KAHA that the joystick controls feel just about perfect as they are.

    DO NOT make it an option for ServerOPs to limit mouse controls in any way.

    Here I disagree strongly though. I think it’ll be really important for people who know the game better to set up games the way they want. Ultimately I think that having an option to force various things (including turn limiting and tri-chording mode)in custom matches is going to be the only way to answer this question (if it ends up being a problem). I’d also suggest then that there be a way for joining players to be able to see what options have been selected by the host so that they can choose a server with options that they like. Let’s not forget that Revival is planning on having random-ish matchmaking too, and that’s likely where most players will end up. I’d say that in that arena players’ controls shouldn’t be messed with and mouse limiting/tri-chording should be up to each individual user.

    When it comes right down to it, I want everyone to be able to enjoy the game the way they like best. For me that’s dual-joystick with turn rate set to 0 and tri-chord flight mode. If I can’t enjoy MP with these settings I simply won’t play. There’s plenty to look forward to in Story Mode and I love Challenge Mode already.

    I also agree with Hurley:

    it’s arguably premature to do anything hastily before public testing even begins.

    Let’s see if there’s actually a problem. It may turn out that my superior flight control balances out my slower turning and inferior aim. We won’t know till we try.

    #16644
    yencil
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 7
    Replies: 32

    Great post, Yoshimitsu!

    And I definitely agree about the cross-platform / gamepad comment. If anything, the question shouldn’t really be “Can joystick users hang with mouse users?” but “Can console users hang with PC users?”

    I think that will be an important question to answer, but there are some easy workarounds – for example, being able to limit a lobby to only console users, or allowing the host to put limits on turn rates for custom games to level the playing field. I’m not too sure I like that second idea, but I think it’s likely Something is needed to give gamepad users a fair chance (even if it’s what many console games do, but would be frowned upon in any PC game, and that’s auto-aim ONLY if playing on a console, for instance).

    I’m open to anything and looking forward to playing – if we can get a lot of folks interested in multiplayer, this would honestly be a great problem to have and be in need of solving ; )

    #16645
    maxxmaxx
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 15
    Replies: 34

    How about a server which can only accept players who have NOT opened any insane maps? This boils down to skill and aggression in the end. If there is server or group of servers which reject players of the elevated skill level and also a group of servers which take all comers, then those at a distinct disadvantage would have a venue that will accommodate their skill commensurately. I am in the camp of nerf no one.

    #16646
    rapturraptur
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 29
    Replies: 134

    FWIW, I’m strongly in favor of mandatory turn rate limits at least as an option for custom games, if not mandatory. Setting aside concerns about a “level playing field” across input devices (i.e. even if only mouse+KB were supported), I’d want matches with turn rate limits. For me, 6DoF combat is all about space and positioning, and turn rate limits are critical for making your position matter.

    #16649
    dues
    Participant
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 17

    Well, if we’re talking about limiting turn rates to compensate for cross platform, we may also have to look at limiting framerates. A PC will just destroy consoles in this matter and once again will give PC a distinct advantage.
    As far as a level playing field, I don’t think there has ever been one, be it connection, rig setup or peripherals.

    #16650
    CHILLYBUSCHILLYBUS
    Kickstarter Backer
    Topics: 61
    Replies: 173

    I’ll open this by saying I strongly agree with the space-and-positioning sentiment at its core — its what separates 6dof from the rest of the shooter market. Given that spatial management is so essential compared to groundpounders and the very different control schemes available to that end, it is more or less impossible to really quantify pilots’ skill against each other with different schemes. Bearing that in mind and unless the 3rd launch gametype is cooperative or a racer of some kind, kills quantify performance in multiplayer matchups.

    The way I see it, there are two pillars to 6dof multiplayer instead of one — 3-d positioning and shooting, and there should be some attempt made to bring those close to being in line with one another. Getting behind other players or chording well should be rewarded to some degree, but too much control limiting greatly removes counterplay options and strongly favors just flanking or being flanked, which is frustrating.

    Now, I did some cursory mucking around with the settings and I think for me personally the weak/normal settings is about as high as I’m willing to play Overload MP on with much regularity. Limiting really affects the feel of the game — and in what is the closest analogue to quake-in-space that we can get, having a really responsive character is critical. I’ve picked up speedrunning D1 1-7 and the mouse control is like turning the ship through sludge. It’s not fun, and it’s a pretty major turnoff from trying the multiplayer. Crucify me for this heresy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was part of the reason why Descent didn’t have the kind of staying power that Q/UT/Halo did as a multiplayer title.

    On the one hand, I can definitely appreciate certain concessions being made for disadvantageous setups…but on the other, there is absolutely such a thing as too much hand-holding, and we won’t really know what’s at a disadvantage or by how much until we’re in the cockpits ourselves.

    I was talking to Luke in a DCL match years ago. He used to play stick, but taught himself to play KBM. His goal was to be the best, it wasn’t really to have the feel. He knew the advantages of a mouse and went with it. Altho I don’t care for his type of sportsmanship, I have to admit he may very well be the best. It goes beyond him too, as most names I can remember use KBM.

    As to the issue of the various sensitivities available to us as well as the movement modes, let us not worry about their differences as they apply to others. Trichording is a complex skill, not easily executed to its maximum benefit except by the absolute best players, the elite of the elite if you will. That is my take on it anyway, so again, I would not begrudge anyone who has perfected the art/skill. All of the wailing and gnashing of teeth belies the true nature of Multiplayer anarchy. I have faced what I consider to be the best pilot in the world in Rebirth Retromod and yes, he hands me my ass for a hat every single time. (Thank you Birdseye!) That puts the onus on me to improve, and improve I shall. I hope for the sake of competition that everyone can arrive at some agreement that the devs can equalize the weapons they provide, but stay away from the weapons that originate between the players seat and keyboard. The tools are available to all, proper selection of those tools is the sole responsibility of each individual player. So please. lets try not to interfere with each players choice of tools. Like natural selection, the best combinations wind up winning in the end anyway.

    I agree with both of these, especially the parts in bold. Within reason, everything pilots have available can also be used or eventually procured by every other pilot. An MMR will help to place players against those of similar performance in the game. If they wish to do better, or if they wish to be better immersed in their experience there are tools that can accomplish each (or both!) tasks admirably.

    We should be cautious to remember that just about everyone will be playing MP for different reasons. Some will try to be the absolute best pilots in the system. Others will wish to be the best pilots they can be. This is an important distinction to make — in the latter case, do control schemes really matter if pilots are playing against folks around their performance level? Again, there is a difference between skill and performance diverge somewhat — if someone trichords really well but can’t land their shots, they’re highly skilled but don’t perform well, do they?

    There are two sort-of questions also lodged somewhere in this post: is Descent an arena shooter, and what does a 6dof arena shooter look like? The answer to the second doesn’t necessarily have to be Descent or Overload, and both questions are just something to consider. The extra dimensionality of 6dof sets it well apart from traditional groundpounders, and as we’re noticing here it’s really difficult to find a response to it.

    #16662
    phyrex
    Participant
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 6

    FWIW, I’m strongly in favor of mandatory turn rate limits at least as an option for custom games, if not mandatory. Setting aside concerns about a “level playing field” across input devices (i.e. even if only mouse+KB were supported), I’d want matches with turn rate limits. For me, 6DoF combat is all about space and positioning, and turn rate limits are critical for making your position matter.

    I play keyboard+mouse and yea I’ll second this. Also playing the game with mouse limiting set to anything lower than strong is just not enjoyable for me and if that puts me at a serious disadvantage in multiplayer I’ll probably end up not playing it for long. (or at all)

    I suspect that for every player like me there are hundreds or even thousands like Chillybus who don’t enjoy limited mouse movement so for the success of the game it might be necessary to allow mouselook-like turning in MP. (Didn’t work out in d3 but those were different times)

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